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General discussion

The Bush religious crusade in perspective.

Mar 18, 2005 1:52AM PST

"the assiduous cultivation of religious constituencies by the Bush apparat, and the undisguised intrusion of evangelical leaders and some conservative Catholic hierarchs into the presidential campaign, demonstrated that the old rule of maintaining a decent respect for the nonpartisanship of religion can now be broken with impunity."
Mark Silk, Religion in the News.

"There are millions of Christians who believe the Bible is literally true, word for word. Some of them?we'll come back to the question of how many? subscribe to a fantastical theology concocted in the nineteenth century by two immigrant preachers who took disparate passages from the Bible and wove them with their own hallucinations into a narrative foretelling the return of Jesus and the end of the world. Google the "Rapture Index" and you will see just how the notion has seized the imagination of many a good and sincere believer (you will also see just where we stand right now in the ticking of the clock toward the culmination of history in the apocalypse). It is the inspiration for the best-selling books in America today?the twelve novels in the Left Behind series by Christian fundamentalist and religious- right warrior Tim LaHaye, a co- founder with Jerry Falwell of the Moral Majority.

"The plot of the Rapture?the word never appears in the Bible although some fantasists insist it is the hidden code to the Book of Revelation?is rather simple, if bizarre. (The British writer George Monbiot recently did a brilliant dissection of it and I am indebted to him for refreshing my own insights.) Once Israel has occupied the rest of its "biblical lands," legions of the Antichrist will attack it, triggering a final showdown in the valley of Armageddon. As the Jews who have not been converted are burned the Messiah will return for the Rapture. True believers will be transported to heaven where, seated at the right hand of God, they will watch their political and religious opponents writhe in the misery of plagues?boils, sores, locusts, and frogs?during the several years of tribulation that follow."

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17852

It would be nice if all this Rapture stuff wasn't some sort of Johnny-Come-Lately gloss added to millennia of reasonably honest belief. But the fact is it dates all the way back to the 19th Century and thus has no legitimacy whatsoever, sort of like Papal infallibility. It is amazing though what some people choose to make up and others choose to believe. Makes one believe in a malevolent being at work.

Hope to see y'all there, I'll bring the marshmallows.

Rob Boyter

Discussion is locked

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It's only scary if you're not ignorant
Mar 30, 2005 10:23PM PST

of the facts.

Dan

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LOL, I had to read that twice!
Apr 10, 2005 7:35AM PDT

I wonder how many people missed your meaning?

Good one, Dan McC

Happy

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(NT) (NT) Too many.
Apr 11, 2005 11:25PM PDT
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Why is it always the religious RIGHT...
Apr 15, 2005 10:12AM PDT

I know of many religious Liberals their simply not as vocal but they do exist and they do have beliefs and they share something sacred with the Holy Bible.
BTW Jesus came once-and I dont know of anyone who would deny it,historically-and He will come again.

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Because the religious are never WRONG? :-)
Apr 15, 2005 3:29PM PDT

Actually, James, there were and are some who deny the fact of many parts of the bible, including the existence of Jesus. They're an obscure minority these days, but at one time they had more influence. No doubt that's one of the many reasons for the decline in serious consideration of the bible.

Don't you think, though, that a truly Godly person wouldn't be easily identifiable as of the political Left or Right? Paul doesn't mention politics or its writers at 2 Tim 3:16,17:
?All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.? (2Ti 3:16-17)
Regards, Doug in New Mexico

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Considering your reply to Rob
Apr 16, 2005 1:31AM PDT

on Paul I find it amusing that you quote PaulHappy

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(NT) (NT) "reply to Rob on Paul"?? Link, please??
Apr 16, 2005 5:48AM PDT
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Actually......
Apr 16, 2005 7:36AM PDT

It was just yer gonna burn, But I was confusing KP's response with yours, sorry.

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'confusing KP with DR'
Apr 16, 2005 1:54PM PDT

Natural mistake; our teachings are so similar. Happy

The response you mention was a quickie joke; I've used it sometimes with Dragon when he calls God "She." A second level of the joke is that I don't believe in "burn" as a punishment, anyway.

I've since posted a serious reply to Rob's (commonly stated) remarks about Paul.

Your small mistake was revealing in another way, I think: KP, who desperately needs to pray to his three gods for a sense of humor, took my joke as
(a) serious, and
(b) a slur against Paul. I am
(c) puzzled by that.

Also, I have been accused sometimes of not signaling clearly when I'm joking in my speech, I have to watch that even more on the 'net. I did use a smiley, but they don't show up as graphics in the subject line. Sorry.
Regards, Doug in New Mexico

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You should at least try to be honest DR. You know very
Apr 16, 2005 2:31PM PDT

well that the Christian church does NOT believe in polytheism. In fact, it's the Jehovah's Witnesses that seem to embrace polytheism (multiple gods) when they say Jesus is a god rather than Jesus is God (John 1).

In case you've forgotten, Christians believe in three persons within One God.

Also, I don't think it is fair to characterize our teachings as similar. You believe that Jesus is Michael the archangel. I believe that Jesus is God the Son, the Lord. Those views are diametrically opposed. The Watchtower is similar to Islam, not Christianity. You both want to make Jesus a great prophet rather than God, rely on your own works to earn salvation, and insist that there is only one person in the Godhead.

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Q.E.D. :-) :-)
Apr 16, 2005 2:56PM PDT
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Cute! When it comes to these subjects, you've got it
Apr 17, 2005 4:59AM PDT

exactly right DR. I don't joke about things like the identity and nature of God. Things bordering on what I consider blaspemy.

BTW, obscure links to posts do nothing to answer the content of the post. Why not respond directly?

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Blasphemy
Apr 20, 2005 2:25PM PDT

I've always considered blasphemy something done not out of ignorance or a differing opinion, but with a deliberate purpose of deceit or defamation.

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(NT) (NT) That defines the Watchtower.
Apr 20, 2005 2:33PM PDT
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The depth and vigor of this discussion has cerainly given
Apr 23, 2005 6:44PM PDT

the lie to your invidious first post Duckman.

I am so out of my depth in real religious discussions, having had a sketchy upbringing within the church and virtually nothing save reading on the early Patristic tradition since then. I would like to thank everyone her who has put life and belief on the line, and their willingness to explore and elaborate their beliefs. I am most greatful among so many others for Doug Pruner who explains his JW beliefs with such patience to a less than receptive and occasionally hostile crowd. I am totally unfamiliar with the belief structure of Jehovah's Witnesses and came from a virulently anti-Witness household, so I am grateful both for the insights and for the patience Doug has shown.

I am, as you all know, gravely disturbed by the religiousification (if that's a word) of a particular Darwinian reading of Economics and the attempt to seal the two together as a single pronouncement from the mount (Mount Greed would be my suspicion) which we are all to worship as the word of God made flesh in George W.. I have no desire to have Millenialist revelation, red in tooth and claw joined with Darwinian Economics equally red in tooth and claw, and then to see the leaders of these foully conjoined twins raised up to the heavens, if only by their own rhetoric that everything they have done has been the Lord's plan, except for those widows in Peoria who were bilked of their life savings, but all is right with the world because that money has enabled Charles Keating, newly released from jail to join the elect.

This is all a prospect too foul to consider, and It is my profound hope that the Department of Justice is on the case now that they've finished kidnapping Dinosaurs.. Lest you think I'm raving, all of this is going on as we speak, better keep your eyes skinned or your *** will be.

Rob

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Thanks for the undeserved compliments.
Apr 24, 2005 7:31AM PDT

Anyway, don't worry; they mommas wear combat boots. Happy
Regards, Doug in New Mexico