The Bush religious crusade in perspective.

groups like the JWs.

but i would still recommend Timothy Ware's The Orthodox Church as a very good short study of the varieties of early divergences of biblical reading and a useful informative text with little bias beyond serving as an introduction to the Orthodox faith and its origins. My personal experience with JW's has been very positive, not least in that they take "no" for an answer far better than adherents of some other sects of the Christian faith.

Rob Boyter

deceive people. If not you, then someone else. That is what this conversation was showing among other things.

If you challenge their belief, they will refuse to consider your point. They will insist, instead, that there is some off the wall explanation for your point.

I do not recommend engaging them in discussion unless you know your material very well.

I thought all of these links were interesting

Jesus- worships?
If you remember previous SE discussions better than some then you know that two common answers have been shown to be not in any bible: "God the son" and "trinity."
The name of my God- Jehovah- appears in your bible several times. It has been hidden by those translators, or we might say misleaders, but it's there.

How thoroughly some have been misled is seen by their claim that the Tetragram- JHVH- is 'unpronounceable.' Yet the Revised Standard Version translators, credentialed scholars all, tell us "While it is almost if not quite certain that the Name was originally pronounced "Yahweh," this pronunciation was not indicated when the [medieval] Masoretes added vowel signs to the consonantal Hebrew text. To the four consonsnts YHWH of the Name, which had come to be regarded as too sacred to be pronounced, they attached vowel signs indicating that in its place should be read the Hebrew word Adonai. meaning "Lord" ..."
All of Hebrew was a consonantal language until the last millenium, and we lack voice recordings of biblical eras, so we must say that every word in a modern bible, and especially all proper names, represent orthographical guesses by those translators, including ours. Why does this situation not keep you from pronouncing "Jesus" or "Moses" or any other name? Why do you reply to a bible discussion by ad hominem., tautological, and poisoning-the-well arguments; all taught as false logic in freshman Psych? Doesn't that expose your motives?

So you let a Jewish superstition, discredited by Ruth 2:4 and many other scriptures, serve as a basis for your refusal to use the name that Jesus 'made manifest' (John 17:6) and continues to make manifest, through his father's remaining Witnesses on earth. (John 17:26) We don't worship Jesus as Almighty God, but we do obey him: Lu 9:35 So we preach not man-made doctrines, but the good news of Jehovah's coming earthwide kingdom under his appointed King, Christ Jesus. (Mt 6:9)

That is what I intend to do at appropriate moments here and elsewhere. Further comments on the trinity will be referred to this post. And those interested in the views of Watchtower Bible and Tract society, with which I am in agreement, can read the cover article of the 4/22/05 Awake!: "Is Jesus Christ God?" It's the one with the cover picture of Jesus praying- to God.

Glenda, it's clear to most of us that the world is in sad shape. What would you think of an earth populated only by people who loved Jesus and his Father, and were willing to obey him? Does an earth like that appeal to you?
Regards, Doug in New Mexico

it. Perhaps you would care to do so while you are in an expansive mood. Please note first how God describes Himself:

Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." NIV

I hope there is no question about who the Alpha and Omega is. Now, consider:

Rev 22:12-16 12 "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

14 "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star." NIV

I'm sure you see DR, that Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. The Alpha and Omega is the Lord God, the Almighty. Conclusion: Jesus is the Lord God, the Almighty.

Please tell us which part of this you don't understand. Also, please provide the verse that says that Jesus worships His Father.

John (as I recall) talks about a new heaven and a new earth. That idea appeals to me very much. How about you? There are entrance requirements though. One must confess and repent of his/her sin, and put his/her faith in Christ as Saviour and Lord. You do remember what Lord means? It means Yahweh. Just like when Thomas said to Jesus, 'My Lord and My God'.

Also, remember that Jesus said that no one comes to the Father except through Him.

DR, you're still trying to link back to Rev. 3:12 while failing to deal with these verses in Revelation. That, in this case, it literally circular logic. However, you should know that one of the principles of Biblical interpretation is that one verse will not contradict another. So, if Rev. 1:8 and Rev. 22:12-16 establish that Jesus is God Almighty (Yahweh), how can you suggest that Rev. 3:12 contradicts that? Relinking to your post does not answer the question because your post didn't answer the question. Of course, you may think it does. In that event, please have mercy on my limited mind, and lay out the answer so that I can understand.

evangelicals would support the Democrats. Then, they would be on the side of the angels speaking for truth and light.

I am, however, intrigued by 'the most extremely religious people I know personally are liberals'. Are these people liberal or conservative when it comes to religion? If liberal religiously, what makes you describe them as extremely religious?

I do know people who are conservative in their religion, and liberal in their politics. However, their liberalism is of the classical type rather than what parades are liberalism today.

William Wilberforce who, based on a belief in the value of the individual, fought for the abolition of slavery. Today's liberals spend their time demeaning the value of the individual, and trying to 'buy' political power. They want to be in the role of taker and giver.

Note that major issues with liberals today are defending abortion and trial lawyer income.

I have to admit that the shades of difference of religious liberalism or conservatism are beyond my scope. I suppose they are liberal religiously but they sure seem rather traditional.

be form rather than substance, and aren't particularly influenced by what the Bible says.

I don't presume to judge anyone's religion. But at any rate, my original point was that I don't see this huge religious crusade on Bush's behalf.

and be talking about it.

My take on the Episcopalians in North America is that most of the members of the church are threatening to cut ties to them because they are disobeying scripture.

My parents made me go there.
I recall, and have read since, that they're "liberal" in at least two senses: They tolerate just about any kind of behavior, even finding a way to label it "Christian," and
They have the rep of being 'nice White folks' who like to 'throw money at problems.' Which is the rap against liberal Dems, BTW.
Did you know there are more Episcopal/Anglican US presidents than any other single religion? Including 'George the First.'
And the famous King James Bible is "their" bible.
Regards, Doug in New Mexico

I know a few fans of the "Left Behind" series and guess what? They're all liberals! FWIW.

I have not read them but it's one of thise things where years ago I said, "Wouldn't it be neat to do a novel based on the Biblical Apocolypse?" And, lo, someone did it!

Jim and I have been buying them as we find them Very well done IMO
Glenda

Liberals? Now that is surprising although conservative Christians can be politically liberal. I think Dr. Bill is close to that position.

book of Proverbs says of the "last days:"
". . .For the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it." (Pr 2:21-22)
Regards, Doug in New Mexico

about the 'last days'. Proverbs 2 is a section on the pursuit of wisdom which will bring security. Here's a short excerpt of the context in which verses 21-22 are found.

Prov 2:14-3:1
And rejoice in the perversity of evil;
15 Whose paths are crooked,
And who are devious in their ways;
16 To deliver you from the strange woman,
From the adulteress who flatters with her words;
17 That leaves the companion of her youth
And forgets the covenant of her God;
18 For her house sinks down to death
And her tracks lead to the dead;
19 None who go to her return again,
Nor do they reach the paths of life.
20 So you will walk in the way of good men
And keep to the paths of the righteous.
21 For the upright will live in the land
And the blameless will remain in it;
22 But the wicked will be cut off from the land
And the treacherous will be uprooted from it. NASU

As you can see, this is the New American Standard that you like to praise.

the ASV:

Prov 2:14-3:1

14 Who rejoice to do evil, And delight in the perverseness of evil;

15 Who are crooked in their ways, And wayward in their paths:

16 To deliver thee from the strange woman, Even from the foreigner that flattereth with her words;

17 That forsaketh the friend of her youth, And forgetteth the covenant of her God:

18 For her house inclineth unto death, And her paths unto the dead;

19 None that go unto her return again, Neither do they attain unto the paths of life:

20 That thou mayest walk in the way of good men, And keep the paths of the righteous.

21 For the upright shall dwell in the land, And the perfect shall remain in it.

22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the land, And the treacherous shall be rooted out of it. ASV

Still no sign of the 'last days' that I can see. Can you point out where you're getting this?