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General discussion

The Bush religious crusade in perspective.

Mar 18, 2005 1:52AM PST

"the assiduous cultivation of religious constituencies by the Bush apparat, and the undisguised intrusion of evangelical leaders and some conservative Catholic hierarchs into the presidential campaign, demonstrated that the old rule of maintaining a decent respect for the nonpartisanship of religion can now be broken with impunity."
Mark Silk, Religion in the News.

"There are millions of Christians who believe the Bible is literally true, word for word. Some of them?we'll come back to the question of how many? subscribe to a fantastical theology concocted in the nineteenth century by two immigrant preachers who took disparate passages from the Bible and wove them with their own hallucinations into a narrative foretelling the return of Jesus and the end of the world. Google the "Rapture Index" and you will see just how the notion has seized the imagination of many a good and sincere believer (you will also see just where we stand right now in the ticking of the clock toward the culmination of history in the apocalypse). It is the inspiration for the best-selling books in America today?the twelve novels in the Left Behind series by Christian fundamentalist and religious- right warrior Tim LaHaye, a co- founder with Jerry Falwell of the Moral Majority.

"The plot of the Rapture?the word never appears in the Bible although some fantasists insist it is the hidden code to the Book of Revelation?is rather simple, if bizarre. (The British writer George Monbiot recently did a brilliant dissection of it and I am indebted to him for refreshing my own insights.) Once Israel has occupied the rest of its "biblical lands," legions of the Antichrist will attack it, triggering a final showdown in the valley of Armageddon. As the Jews who have not been converted are burned the Messiah will return for the Rapture. True believers will be transported to heaven where, seated at the right hand of God, they will watch their political and religious opponents writhe in the misery of plagues?boils, sores, locusts, and frogs?during the several years of tribulation that follow."

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17852

It would be nice if all this Rapture stuff wasn't some sort of Johnny-Come-Lately gloss added to millennia of reasonably honest belief. But the fact is it dates all the way back to the 19th Century and thus has no legitimacy whatsoever, sort of like Papal infallibility. It is amazing though what some people choose to make up and others choose to believe. Makes one believe in a malevolent being at work.

Hope to see y'all there, I'll bring the marshmallows.

Rob Boyter

Discussion is locked

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So, you are saying that Jesus' teaching was misleading, at
Apr 15, 2005 4:16PM PDT

best, because He spoke as if Abraham and Lazarus are alive and could talk to other people. Why would Jesus tell such a misleading story if it were not true? The Watchtower would rather put the deception in the mouth of Jesus than admit their own deceit in this and many other points of theology.

Physical death does not entail death of the soul or spirit. That is why Jesus could say that God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. I see you conveniently 'forgot' to address that passage.

And what do you say to the transfiguration in Matthew 17 where Moses and Elijah appeared and talked with Jesus? Another deception by Jesus?

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Excellent point
Apr 20, 2005 2:15PM PDT

When it comes to the point that anyone puts deception into Jesus mouth in order for their own lying doctrines to be promulgated, then they've placed themselves ahead of our Lord. Twice Jesus made it plain that Abraham was ALIVE THEN, just at another place, yet the WT will deny it rather than give up their error.

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Pergatory is where
Mar 22, 2005 2:37AM PST

CNET keeps it's most unruly and disreputable. They have a different name for it is all.

Wink

Dan

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Hey Ziks511. Moyers is in line with mainstream majority
Apr 24, 2005 8:37AM PDT

scholarship on this issue. The key words in this area are Dispensationalism and Premilleniumisn. The names you will see most often associated with this doctrine are John Darby and Cyrus Ingerson Scofield.
Some Christian sects accept the doctrine. Others do not.
It's woth noting that two preeminent Churh writers credit Darby with the origins of the Rapture doctrine.

Alexander Reese says: "About 1830 a new school arose within the fold of Premillennialism that sought to overthrow what, since the Apostolic Age, have been considered by all premillennialist as established results, and to institute in their place a series of doctrines that had never been heard of before. The school I refer to is that of ?The Brethren? or ?Plymouth Brethren,? founded by J. N. Darby.?
Alexander Reese, The Approaching Advent of Christ, page 18, quoted from J. Dwight Pentecost, Things To Come, page 165


Robert Cameron says,

?Now, be it remembered, that prior to that date, no hint of any approach to such belief can be found in any Christian literature from Polycarp down.... Surely, a doctrine that finds no exponent or advocate in the whole history and literature of Christendom, for eighteen hundred years after the founding of the Church - a doctrine that was never taught by a Father or Doctor of the Church in the past - that has no standard Commentator or Professor of the Greek language in any Theological School until the middle of the Nineteenth century, to give it approval, and that is without a friend, even to mention its name amongst the orthodox teachers or the heretical sects of Christendom - such a fatherless and motherless doctrine, when it rises to the front, demanding universal acceptance, ought to undergo careful scrutiny before it is admitted and tabulated as part of ?the faith once for all delivered unto the saints.?
Robert Cameron, Scriptural Truth About The Lord?s Return, page 72-73, quoted from J. Dwight Pentecost, Things To Come, page 165, 166

Check out these links. Try an online encyclopeadia.

http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/cathouse/darby.htm
http://askelm.com/doctrine/d760201.htm
http://www.theologicalstudies.org/dispen.html
This is neat. Here is the Freemason take on it:
http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/Writings/dispensationalism.html
This one's good, really interesting:
http://www.historicist.com/articles2/distimeline.htm
http://www.theocracywatch.org/christian_zionism_dispensationalism.htm

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(NT) (NT) Dear mods : Why was "freemasonry" deleted from the URL?
Apr 24, 2005 8:42AM PDT
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I have no idea what you're talking about-
Apr 24, 2005 11:52AM PDT

nothing new there- but one thing is clear:
You keep going to hookers for your info!
ttp://www.sullivan-county.com/news/cathouse/darby.htm
I don't care if she's wearing a Darby or ballheaded! A hooker is a hooker! (Sounds kinky, though; ever tried it? Reply by private mail.)


...


Do I need to add a smiley?

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(NT) (NT) Sorry, Mods. S/b "ladies of the evening" :-)
Apr 24, 2005 11:54AM PDT
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DR What I was talking about was this:
Apr 24, 2005 12:27PM PDT

******************.bcy.ca/Writings/dispensationalism.html

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(NT) (NT) Forum filters. Mods have nothing to do with it.
Apr 25, 2005 1:51AM PDT
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Any idea why
Apr 25, 2005 6:24PM PDT

"freemasonry" would be deleted from the URL?

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(NT) (NT) I don't know, but you could check with Lee.
Apr 26, 2005 1:33AM PDT
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Because the Union rep complained to Lee
Apr 26, 2005 3:21AM PDT

that people were expecting to have their walls built for free. Happy

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I posted in Feedback asking him about it.
Apr 26, 2005 3:28AM PDT

There was someone else who was having the same issues. We'll see what he has to say. There are a LOT of innocuous words being filtered for no apparent reason.

--Cindi
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email the mods

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Response
Apr 26, 2005 6:05AM PDT

From Lee:

Cindi we are working to correct the new word filtering

as we speak. I apologize for all these issues.

The reason for the free being filter in the URL is because of all the free.ipod etc URL spam that we have been receiving in the forums and also user opinions.

The reason why ho.rn and sh.atter are being caught by the filter is because of the word h.orny and sh.at (past tense of you know...) Grin

Anyhoos, we are working on the filter. Sorry for all inconvenience everyone!

-Lee

Posted by: Lee Koo (ADMIN) Moderator Posted on: 04/26/2005 10:42 AM


http://reviews.cnet.com/5208-7598-0.html?forumID=51&threadID=100250&messageID=1154555

--Cindi
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email the mods

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Fascinating. I guess this forum business
Apr 26, 2005 11:21AM PDT

isn't as easy as it looks. Happy
Regards, Doug in New Mexico

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Again many thanks, and apologies for the hiatus. I'm having
May 3, 2005 6:05PM PDT

trouble accessing messages on the new shortened forum pages. I seem to get stopped at the 30 mark. I found this by doing a seafch under my own handle and there your post was.
More info for this information junkie to digest.
Rob

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Panmilleniumism
May 3, 2005 10:29PM PDT
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Another complete misunderstanding of history, and, now
Mar 19, 2005 1:38AM PST

"What on earth does a religious topic have to do with George Bush? Answer: nothing at all! It's just another attempt to ridicule Bush and suppress the free speech of the religiously inclined."

You can't read the writing on the wall? You can't be helped. Why must religious zealots be so blind? Most know we are in the "end times" and most know that this president was 'selected by God Himself' to help finalize the end of the world as most know it.

Why must you deny the truth?

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(NT) (NT) Your sarcasm is a bit thick here:(
Mar 19, 2005 1:56AM PST
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Please provide a link to where George Bush said he was
Mar 19, 2005 2:08AM PST

'selected by God Himself to help finalize the end of the world as most know it'.

What is your idea of 'truth', and where does it come from? I'm having trouble seeing where you are coming from.

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where you are coming from
Mar 27, 2005 8:10AM PST

I'm coming from the diametrically opposed side of your man Bush and you thumping your bible all over this land.

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Well, that was really informative. I guess I'm enlightened
Mar 27, 2005 11:07AM PST

now. I see that you still can't provide a link.

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Opinions count for something
Mar 30, 2005 2:54AM PST

To hell with links, we all have our personal opinions which is mostly what this place is about.

You don't want to know my real opinion of Bush or you.

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(NT) (NT) To tell the truth, I don't care.
Mar 30, 2005 6:01AM PST
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(NT) (NT) You've made that abundantly clear through your posts KP
Mar 30, 2005 6:10AM PST
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Suggest you review this again, apparently you didn't
Mar 27, 2005 2:39PM PST
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Why should I 'review this again'? I asked for a link to the
Mar 30, 2005 6:13AM PST

place where George Bush said he was:

'selected by God Himself to help finalize the end of the world as most know it'

and you are saying it's not there. I don't know about you, but I don't have the time or inclination to read a lot of ruminations about what Bush may have said or thought with little or no actual quotes from Bush. If there's something there that you think I should see, spell it out. If you want to ponder deep and mysterious meanings or implications, go to it. Just don't try to say your conclusions are facts.

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Same link as before though I don't expect you will accept it
Apr 15, 2005 9:01AM PDT
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(NT) (NT) If you don't have a link, why don't you just say so.
Apr 15, 2005 9:41AM PDT
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I have to admit I have NO IDEA what you are trying to say or
Apr 21, 2005 12:19PM PDT

why. What do you think truth is?