The Bush religious crusade in perspective.

Whom Jesus assured would be with Him in paradise that very day?

SOMEONE's there!

--Cindi
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email the mods

Two opposing bible translations:
?And he said to him: ?Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.?? (Lu 23:43; NWT)
?And he said to him: ?Truly I tell you, today You will be with me in Paradise.?? (Lu 23:43; most others)
Which is correct? Recourse to the old manuscripts doesn't help, because they had no modern punctuation. In that case we have to see which view of matters is consistent with the rest of the bible.

When did Jesus himself return to heaven? It couldn't have been "that very day." He had prophesied that when talking to the unbelieving religious leaders of his day:
?Then as an answer to him some of the scribes and Pharisees said: ?Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.? In reply he said to them: ?A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jo?nah the prophet. For just as Jo?nah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.? (Mt 12:38-40)

But neither did he return immediately on being resurrected:
?Jesus said to [Mary Magdalene]: ?Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you looking for?? She, imagining it was the gardener, said to him: ?Sir, if you have carried him off, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.? Jesus said to her: ?Mary!? Upon turning around, she said to him, in Hebrew: ?Rab

Do you think Jesus WASN'T speaking to Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration? In the book of Revelation, who do you think those saints are that come back with Jesus? If they were just asleep in the earth, then why did they need to return? When Paul spoke of those coming back with Christ, where were they coming from? (see passages below) When Stephen was stoned to death and as he was dying looked upward and claimed he saw Jesus standing beside God, do you think he was lying? Do you think that was the last thing he saw till Judgement Day? When Christ kept saying the "kingdom of heaven" was at hand, did you think he meant quite a few years later it was "at hand"? Do you not read of more than one ressurection in the Scriptures? What is your take on that one?

Concerning Lazarus it seems disengenious to imply he came forth from the grave in a different body. Do you think his old body was still there? Did the new body decide to take the stinking wrappings off the old body and put them on? Why did Jesus tell them to feed him? Was it because the new body was created already hungry? The big question is why didn't he just raise him right there from the dirt and leave the grave untouched if it was a new body? Of course it's obvious that Lazarus actual body, even with decay, was restored and raised back to life.


I Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


1 Corinthians 15:42 - So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

Revelation 20:5 - But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:6 - Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

'procession' into heaven of those who are invited to go there. All were keyed to answering Cindy's question about a specific incident in Jesus' execution. A quick glance shows me that about 80% of my post was direct quotes, from all bible translations except for editors' choices of the addition of a comma which did not exist in the original. A difference I was careful to point out.

With which of the quotes do you disagree? We need to identify and resolve your differences with the word of God at Golgotha before we can have a reasonable discussion 'way up on an unnamed mountain.

Otherwise someone might accuse us of the capital crime of blasphemy.
Regards, Doug in New Mexico

So you pick and choose what parts of the Bible you want to pay attention to? Wouldn't it be better if you paid attention to it all and seek to understand it all fitting together rather than to improperly divide the word of Truth? What is it you wanted to discuss about Golgotha that disproves the Mount of Transfiguration? Was it about that still unanswered question of why Jesus called the Father "El" when he was dying on the cross?

Your words, not mine.
I posted a scriptural response to Cindi, with which you seem to disagree. What part of that doesn't meet with your approval? One topic at a time.

Two opposing bible translations:
?And he said to him: ?Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.?? (Lu 23:43; NWT)
?And he said to him: ?Truly I tell you, today You will be with me in Paradise.?? (Lu 23:43; most others)
Which is correct? Recourse to the old manuscripts doesn't help, because they had no modern punctuation. In that case we have to see which view of matters is consistent with the rest of the bible.

You trying to play cute grammatical games with the Scriptures? You think Jesus was being redundant or figured the thief might make a mistake and think Jesus was telling him this on some other day? If Jesus wanted to tell him he'd be in Paradise with him at some juncture not necessarily that same day, he'd never have needed to use the word "today" at all. Obviously YOU are the one trying to make grammatical errors in order to justify a doctrine. The word "today" would never be there unless he fully intended to make clear he meant that very same day they'd be together. You also may have a problem resolving him being in Paradise with Jesus based on where the resurrected will be according to your doctrine.


When did Jesus himself return to heaven? It couldn't have been "that very day." He had prophesied that when talking to the unbelieving religious leaders of his day:

See! Even you recognize the incongruity presented by trying to resolve erroneous WT doctrines with what Jesus said, even after playing a grammatical game with it. Jesus told Mary not to touch him after his resurrection since he'd not yet "returned unto the Father" who we know to be in heaven as He so often mentioned.


?Then as an answer to him some of the scribes and Pharisees said: ?Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.? In reply he said to them: ?A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jo?nah the prophet. For just as Jo?nah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.? (Mt 12:38-40)

What does this have to do with Cindy's question? Since it's here let me just note that he's speaking to that VERY generation he was calling "wicked and adulterous", he was saying THEY were unworthy of a sign. He WASN'T saying it made one wicked and adulterous to ask for a sign, since it's obvious from various accounts in the OT, such was NEVER his policy. Jesus was not condemning them for seeking a sign, but for being "wicked and adulterous" and therefore no sign would be given them since they didn't deserve it, except for the one he mentioned.


But neither did he return immediately on being resurrected:
?Jesus said to [Mary Magdalene]: ?Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you looking for?? She, imagining it was the gardener, said to him: ?Sir, if you have carried him off, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.? Jesus said to her: ?Mary!? Upon turning around, she said to him, in Hebrew: ?Rab

"Recourse to the old manuscripts doesn't help, because they had no modern punctuation." True fact, which colors anyone's view of what follows. It doesn't affect your view, therefore your view is bound to be incomplete at the very least.

Your second point confirms what I said. On the third day Jesus himself said "I have not yet returned to the Father." Scripture and Watchtower agree. It also shows the resurrected Jesus and his Father to be separate, not part of a triune god.

What does Jonah have to do with Cindy's question? Exactly what Jesus and the Watchtower say it does: "Just as Jo?nah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.? (Mt 12:38-40) Therefore "comma today" has to be an incorrect placing of the modern comma in an ancient text which did not have that comma.

"Here's a mind twister question for you"
Doesn't twist my mind, since I begin by quoting accurately: "Jesus said to her: ?Stop clinging to me..." ("Do not hold me;" RSV)
The second part is for you to answer: Putting on 'the mind of the Christ,' please tell us why indeed Jesus would invite Thomas to "touch" his side and hands. (1 Cor 2:16)

"In fact, he didn't return until just before the significant festival of Pentecost, which is 50 days after Passover"
My thinking; Watchtower thinking. Luke's thinking: "I composed about all the things Jesus started both to do and to teach, until the day that he was taken up, after he had given commandment through holy spirit to the apostles whom he chose. To these also by many positive proofs he showed himself alive after he had suffered, being seen by them throughout forty days and telling the things about the kingdom of God.? (Ac 1:1-3)

"That has nothing to do with Cindy's question"
"SOMEONE (was) there!'" was part of Cindy's question. I answered it: Jehovah, Satan, angels, Jesus; no humans. Many are puzzled to think that Satan could have been in Heaven, not "Hell." Their bible says otherwise.

"Therefore it's quite possible (most likely, hint, hint) the events described above have yet to happen."
So you think Satan is still in Heaven?

Like some others here you knee-jerk "Watchtower!!" at any of my posts. Others may be noticing that the posts you refer to are over majority bible quotes- any bible. That's why I stick with the Watchtower publications- they're the right stuff.

mouth. They don't belong there of course, but I love the slick way it's done. One must read carefully to notice what's going on.

"I have not yet returned to the Father."

We don't really know what Jesus meant by this since He did not elaborate. Most commentators think that Jesus was telling Mary that there was a new relationship, that she would have the opportunity to see Him, and that there were things she needed to be doing instead of tarrying with Him. Other women were allowed to touch Him.

Matt 28: 9 And behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and took hold of his feet, and worshipped him.

10 Then saith Jesus unto them, Fear not: go tell my brethren that they depart into Galilee, and there shall they see me. ASV

Did you catch that DR? Thats the good old ASV that you like, and it says they worshipped Him. Did he correct them for this 'error'? No, He simply reaasured them and sent them on their way.

Incidentally, this exchange does not show a separation between God and Jesus. God is omnipresent. It's not like He's sitting on a throne in heaven waiting for Jesus to arrive. Jesus is simply referring to the first person of the Trinity. You seriously need to work on your theology DR.

I love it when you bring up the subject of Thomas.

The second part is for you to answer: Putting on 'the mind of the Christ,' please tell us why indeed Jesus would invite Thomas to "touch" his side and hands. (1 Cor 2:16)

The scripture makes it crystal clear why Jesus invited Thomas to touch Him. Thomas had said that unless he could see and touch the real, physical body of Jesus, he would not believe. Jesus gave Thomas the opportunity to verify that He, Jesus, had a physical, risen body. He was not some sort of apparition.

Thomas responded with his well known testimony to the identity of Jesus.

John 20: 28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." NIV

Thomas said, 'My Jehovah God!', and Jesus said, 'Thomas, you've finally figured it out. That's good, but those who believe even though they don't have physical proof stannding right in front of them are far better off.'

Jesus praised Thomas, and said Thomas was correct when Thomas called Jesus Jehovah. (Note: I am catering to the WT custom here to make the point. The Greek text never uses the word Jehovah although the WT mistranslates it that way.

DR, you have never even tried to explain what Thomas said other than to attempt to brush it aside without an explanation. Why not?

in the old manuscripts. (I've seen two of the 'big three' in London.)
All modern versions have a comma at that verse, so each editor decided for himself where to put it. The placement drastically affects the meaning of the passage.
I cited several scriptures from your own bible to prove that Jesus did not to to heaven on 'that first day.'

"Well, Jesus went, so it's entirely probable that the thief was with him."
But we've seen that Jesus didn't go on the "today" that your bible says. "Entirely probable" is your opinion. You may be surprised to find how much church teaching is based on that misplaced comma.

"Entry wasn't opened to humans until Jesus went first,"
I said.
Absolutely true, according to your bible: 1 Cor 15:20-26; Heb 9 & 10. That's why Jesus said of his cousin John, ?Truly I say to YOU people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.? (Mt 11:11) John died too soon for a heavenly reward.

John, the thief, and millions of others now 'sleeping in death' face the prospect of resurrection to an earth with its paradisaic conditions restored. That's the only situation that will fulfill Jehovah's original purpose for the earth, a purpose that cannot fail.
Ps 37:10,11,29; Mt 5:5.

If the thief didn't 'go to heaven' with Jesus, what have you lost of the bible's authentic promises?
Regards, Doug in New Mexico

I don't think it's reasonable to state that my church has taught incorrectly based on a misplaced comma that you then insist never existed. Either it's there for all arguments or it's not.

If every editor did indeed choose the spot, then although the NWT is in the minority as far as the placement is concerned, I guess we've each still got a 50/50 shot that our own Bible's placement is the correct one. And yes, we're betting our lives that we've made the right choice.

--Cindi
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email the mods

to good advantage. Every editor puts one in that sort of sentence, religious or not. Since there's no absolute authority- no comma in the original- the rest of the bible must show us where to use it.
That's why I was careful to use relevant quotes from your bible. I wasn't looking for a majority- that's not necessary- I want the truth. In this case there can be only one. The thief and Jesus died that day. Hundreds of quotes show Jesus was resurrected to spirit- not physical - life. Nothing to indicate the thief went anywhere except to the common grave of mankind, to await his physical resurrection.
It's a popular, majority belief that if we go to church and do certain things we'll zip up to heaven when we die. Popular, majority, not biblical. Please reread the quotes in my original post. Are they accurate? Are they in your bible? Is the bible the word of God?
?Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious [and popular] is the road leading off into destruction, and many [the majority] are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.? (Mt 7:13-14)
Regards, Doug in New Mexico

can't be changed by ignoring what it says, or directing attention to some other passage. It just won't fly.

Hundreds of quotes show Jesus was resurrected to spirit- not physical - life.

Jesus made it crystal clear that He had a physical, resurrected body. He invited Thomas, who doubted that Jesus was physically risen, to confirm this by touching Him, and putting his fingers into the crucifiction wounds. Thomas responded by calling Jesus 'My Jehovah God!'. Jesus accepted this title because it is true. In addition, Jesus prepared and consumed fish for and with the disciples. This was not some elaborate ruse on the part of God the Son. This was dramatic proof that He was risen.

Nothing in the Bible says otherwise. Saying is ain't so doesn't change the fact that it is so.

When Jesus said THIS day thou will be with me in Paradise, he was talking of the Triune God!

Until Doug is willing to accept this below he will continue to allow the WT to blind him to the Truth about Jesus.
===========================================

Colossians 2:8 - See to it that no one makes a prey of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ. For in him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily, and you have come to fulness of life in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. (RSV)

John 10:30 - I and my Father are one. (KJV)

John 17:22 - And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: (KJV)

Here's the Trinity! Holy Ghost as a dove, the Father in the bright cloud, the Son being baptized.

Luke 3:22 - And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Matthew 17:5 - While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

This was His Son before he came into the world and we knew Him as Jesus.

1 John 4:9 - In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. (KJV)

John 17:5 - And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (KJV)

What I meant was that Jesus is God. The thief being with Christ in Heaven and Christ being on earth, explains that he is God, Christ and the Holy Spirit al at the same time. hope I cleared up what I meant to say

He's teaching Special Ed kids- none older than 3rd grade- about language and other things.
When they see a statement about a man in a river, a bird on his head, and a voice from 'waaaay up there, where God lives, they understand that three different entities are being talked about. They have to understand that, because that's what's being described in plain English. Three separate entities, not one or two or one three-headed one. (They would correctly understand that last to be some kind of fairy-tale monster.)

Third grade, Special Ed. That's what we teach them, that's what the State Ed Dept. requires them to understand.

They have few of the advantages of highly-evolved, highly-educated SE members, and several problems we don't have, but they do have this: A desire to learn. They understand that, really, how could they understand without someone to teach them.

Third-grade, Special Ed, no monsters except in fairy tales- clearly identified as such.

Do they understand the concept of Cindi the Moderator, Cindi the Daughter, and Cindi the Mother?

--Cindi
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email the mods

closets or you all wear the same size clothes. And think of all the laundry!



Dan

Unless someone says that one Cindi is standing in a river, one is on someone's head, and the third is 'waaaay up there, where God lives. Then they count three people. Not one, not two, not one with three heads, like a fairytale monster. (They tend to like fairytale monsters, but those who believe in a God never, ever mix up the two.)
And those who are Witnesses know that bunnies don't lay eggs, although some of the others think they do. Don't know where they got that idea.
Not from Dan or mark, they teach honest evolution: "Rabbit, mammal of the family Leporidae, which includes the hare. The term rabbit generally refers to small, running animals that give birth to blind, naked young; hare refers to larger, hopping forms with longer ears and legs whose young are born furred and open-eyed. Wild rabbits are up to 16 in. (41 cm) long and have grayish-brown fur. The European common rabbit (Oryctolagus cuniculus), native to S Europe and Africa, is now found worldwide. It lives in elaborate, adjoining warrens and is chiefly nocturnal, feeding on vegetation. All domestic rabbits belong to this species. They never, ever run around with baskets of colored eggs. Although a monster might." [Columbia Concise Encyclopedia, amended]
And the Witnesses know there could be many Cindis in the world, but the man in the river is named Jesus, the voice from 'waaaay up there where God lives is God's, whose name is Jehovah, and the bird is "the Spirit of God descending like a dove." That spirit is a normally-invisible active force, like wind or electricity, and doesn't have a name. One, two, three.

OK, you've all been very good today. Except for that kid, Pete, who just won't stop talking. Don't forget to put your take-homes in your backpacks. We'll have a test tomorrow before recess.
Regards, Doug in New Mexico

three persons, but one God. Everyone has trouble visualizing that, but we also know that God is spirit. He doesn't have three heads on one body, and He doesn't have three bodies. The Witnesses don't accept the witness of scripture. What else is new?

Special researchers. Their reply will be forwarded to you as soon as received.

Hi Doug,

Don't you think that if God wanted, he could allow Cindi to be 3 things to 3 people in 3 different places at once? Not even necessary to stop at three! How about Cindi the wife, Cindi the sister, and Cindi the friend.

Why is it necessary that the 3 persons of God are seperate entities? God is omniscient, omnipotent, all- powerful and sovereign. Jesus and the Holy Spirit also have these attributes. Is your God so limited that He can't exist in 3 forms at once?

--Cindi
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email the mods

testing

Jesus story of the rich man (and Lazarus) who was consigned to hell:

Luke 16:22-24 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' NIV

Consider also what Jesus said about God's relationship with Abraham and others;

Matt 22:29-32 Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead-have you not read what God said to you, 32'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living." NIV

You sound almost like you are in the group who thinks we are the figment of someone's imagination, and are not real at all.

In Jesus' illustration my bible says that "[the rich man] saw Abraham afar off and Laz?a