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General discussion

Teaching is getting to be a more dangerous job every day.

Mar 6, 2004 12:14AM PST

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Police Say 2 Boys Plotted to Kill Teacher


Two middle school students described by police as clean-cut 14-year-olds were arrested for allegedly plotting to kill a teacher who had flunked one of them.

Authorities said the plot was foiled Friday after a student at Palm Middle School in suburban Lemon Grove heard the teens boasting about their plans and told his parents.

"It was within a half-hour of happening," said sheriff's Lt. Dennis Ferons.

The boys were arrested at school and a .25-caliber semiautomatic pistol belonging to the father of one of them was found hidden in bushes on campus, police said.

http://www.ev1.net/english/news/newsarticle.asp?articleID=18924996&subject=headlines


These are 14 year olds!!! Why is it so many of our youth are taking killing so casually? In my school days getting revenge was maybe putting a tack on the teacher's chair (which never worked) or at worst a frog in the chalk drawer.

Discussion is locked

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I tried to do that, but blew it.
Mar 6, 2004 5:29AM PST

When my daughter was still 3 or 4, we had a Latin King living next door who had burglarized our house. I wanted to teach her to leave a gun alone if she happened to see one. I put ear protectors on her, and had her sit behind me. I then fired my 357 a few times to show her what it would do. It seems she got the point, but became afraid of guns. I'll have to try to remedy that one of these days.

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Best idea that I ever saw, Kiddpeat...
Mar 6, 2004 5:50AM PST

Kiddpeat, a writer for a gun magazine came up with a suggestion that is the best that I've ever seen. He realized that kids can't relate to power of a bullet. So he took a penny, and shot it with a scoped .22 caliber rifle, punching a hole thru it.
Kids understand pennies and how tough they are, so it instantly suitably impressed them with the power of a gun. Then he gave that punched penny to the kid as a "pocket piece" so that it would be a reminder in the future. Bonus: every other kid to whom the kid showed that "neat thing" instantly got the message, although they weren't even there.

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Re:I tried to do that, but blew it. At least you tried:)
Mar 6, 2004 6:06AM PST

You have to remember that my Son is a Staff Seargent in the Marine Corps and all of his kids think they are privates in the Marine Corps! LOL
I told him once that his kids DO NOT have to salute him when he gets home! hehehe
Glenda

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but they do have to come to attention?
Mar 6, 2004 3:06PM PST
Devil
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Depends on how much trouble they are in....
Mar 6, 2004 11:12PM PST

The oldest has learned a Salute and Yes Sir! Gets a good response! LOL You know I'm kidding Right??? LOL
But really all of the Son's kids are so polite, it is yes Sir and Yes Ma'am! I just talked with the 4 kids the other night and had to tell them I am Grandma and you don't need to yes Ma'am me, Just call me Grandma!
Glenda

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Guns aren't a problem until people decide to use them.
Mar 6, 2004 3:16AM PST

After that point, it's just a matter of choosing the weapon. If not a gun, then a knife or something equally lethal.

The real issue is why the kids are ready to kill? Seems to me like that's because they're not aware of a judge that they will someday face who will not give them a pass for their actions.

That probably means, for starters, the legal system, and, ultimately, the reality of God's demand for justice and accountability.

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"........ the reality of God's demand for justice and accountability."
Mar 6, 2004 7:09AM PST

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You touched on one of my pet peeves, KP. Religion or sound moral teaching doesn't even play a part in the lives of many kids whether from organized religious education or only the parents themselves (which after all are the primary teachers). There seems to be more and more amoral young people out there. Not most of them by any means but most of them aren't a problem to society, only the few. However, I think the numbers are growing.

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Re:Guns aren't a problem until people decide to use them.
Mar 15, 2004 8:16AM PST

I totally agree with your opinion. I think that guns are not the main problem and cause of today's crimes with people (young people). I feel that the cause occurs with the reason why children use the weapons.

Maybe there's more to it then just picking up a weapon and wanting to kill someone. The is an enormous possibility of previous actions that have led to violent behavior.

What do you think?
holmesj9@hotmail.com

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Aw come on Dave ...
Mar 6, 2004 4:19AM PST

... if the pervasive availability had anything to do with it then back in the "Little House on the Prarie" days we would have heard no end of the shootings.

Evie Happy

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Dave, television and movies may be large contributors but ....
Mar 6, 2004 6:36AM PST

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I think one of the biggest desensitizers to violence are video games. From what I have seen of them they show and involve the player in some of the most vicious and violent killings possible. I don't think they are regulated in any way and anything goes. Some kids are absolutely obsessed with them and play them by the hours.

http://www.gamespot.com/index.html?reflash=1

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Re:Re: Teaching is getting to be a more dangerous job every day.
Mar 6, 2004 8:20AM PST

I just had a thought. I wonder if those states includes all guns, currently operational and not.

There are a lot of collectors starting with Civil War, World War I and II. I wonder how those numbers influence the stats you remember from the 60's.

RogerNC

click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

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His remark is based on a frivolous 'study'...
Mar 7, 2004 3:15AM PST

(frivolous is being nice because actually it was mostly a work of fiction by one of those "publish or perish" obscure academics) that was located on the old HCI site for a while (even after it had been soundly debunked and the author ridiculed by his peers). The author of the "study" was Michael Bellesiles and the name of the "study" was Arming America here is one link http://hnn.us/articles/930.html with a follow up at http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20021125&s=editors2 . Dave did NOT learn this 40 some years ago as he would have us believe because the history he was taught actually closely approximated the history the rest of us were taught (the history he "learned" however is obviously different).

It is just one of those things gun control proponents use that "sound good" to the uneducated (or unintelligent) but can't be backed up. Here is another long list:
http://www.ubersite.com/m/26020

Note number 18:
18. The ready availability of guns today, with waiting periods, background checks, fingerprinting, government forms, et cetera, is responsible for recent school shootings,compared to the lack of school shootings in the 40's, 50's and 60's, which resulted from the availability of guns at hardware stores, surplus stores, gas stations, variety stores, mail order, et cetera ...

An interesting read here in view of the initial topic of this discussion:
http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Kopel/kidgun.html

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Re:Re: Teaching is getting to be a more dangerous job every day.
Mar 7, 2004 2:38AM PST
Finally (and I know you'll disagree), the pervasive availability of weapons in today's society. Stats show there are more guns per capita in America now than at the height of the Indian Wars and the Wild West.

This is not the reason such kids as these decide to kill, it is just the tool they happened to choose for the job at hand.

Would you claim that people who kill with knives decided to kill because knives are available or is it that they decided to kill as a first choice and then chose the knife as the tool for the job at hand because it was the tool that was convenient at the time?

Do people that kill with cars choose to kill simply because cars are available or is the choice to kill seperate from the choice to use a car as the weapon?

People choose to kill because there is something inherently wrong with their values and beliefs. They do not choose to be killers simply because tool A or tool B is available to do the job. If you believe differently then you should work to eradicate all of the tools that are used for killing. Maybe you could start with water some killers can't use it to drown people anymore...

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A more interesting stat/factor ...
Mar 7, 2004 4:17AM PST

... would probably be the presence of a father in the home. I'm thinking there would be a higher correlation of violence to the absence of a father in the home than with the presence of a firearm.

Evie Happy

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Re:Re:Teaching is getting to be a more dangerous job every day.
Mar 7, 2004 1:30AM PST

There is also the evolution of criminal rights. In older days you knew there was a severe punishment for such acts. Now you know that you won't be hung or shot by the firing squad and you might even get out of jail for good behavior in as little as 5 years. There is less and less deterrence in the punishments doled out today.

Aside from the criminal justice system the same philosophy has taken root in the upbringing of children and the expectations of their behavior in school. School administrators can't paddle kids anymore and it's getting to the point where they can't even sit them in the corner anymore. With no punishment to be afraid of the kids are learning that they can do as they wish without fear of any real punishment.

I just hope that at some point society wakes up and realizes that consequences severe enough to function as a deterrent are required.

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I doubt the kids we are talking about think or even care about punishment ....
Mar 7, 2004 2:04AM PST

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What The Kids Say

"I use myself as an example. I am already active in the right-wing, and its only a matter of time before I will be willing to follow the example set by Tim McVeigh. I plan to join the military to get the skills I need to take out my rage on others. I am probably a potential serial killer as well. Soon, fantasies about rape and murder of teenage girls will no longer be sufficient. My interest in arson and explosives would also be troubling to anyone who knew of my inner thoughts. Currently, I am planning to torch an abandoned barn and then listen to the fire department on my scanner just to see what it would be like."

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/weird/kids1/say_5.html?sect=3

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That's exactly the point
Mar 7, 2004 2:26AM PST

These kids were likely raised without any real accountability for their actions and now they don't think about or care about the consequences. They don't know what's it's like to fear the consequences of their actions. Their mentality is the result of the gradual evolution of criminal rights where punishments and/or consequences are gradually decreased. Had these boys enjoyed the experience of the wood shed while growing up then perhaps their choice to kill may never have entered their minds. I think it would be even less likely if they had learned a fear of being hung by the neck until dead for such actions. Unfortunately, they have learned no fear for any consequences and look at the results Sad

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And the schools ...
Mar 7, 2004 2:32AM PST

... basically teach them that their parents' rules are antiquated, unfair or whatever. That any physical punishment is equated with abuse. When you undermine the parent as primary disciplinarian in this manner it's no wonder the parents have begun to see teacher as competition for respect rather than partner in learning.

We have to wake up and stop trying to "understand" this as much as to return to the tried and true methods we know were successful in instilling respect personal responsibility.

Evie Happy

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I think, Clay, the point is that there are emotions stronger than fear at work here.
Mar 7, 2004 2:34AM PST

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Like hate. It can over ride fear in a heartbeat.

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Interesting ...
Mar 7, 2004 2:27AM PST

... how out of all the pages, you decided to pluck that which makes it seem to be a right-wing problem out.

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Give the teacher a gun and...
Mar 8, 2004 12:45AM PST

...tell the punks if they get too out of line he's got the right to shoot them. (tic)

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Coming this summer....HOMEROOM AT THE OK CORRAL
Mar 8, 2004 2:14AM PST
Devil