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General discussion

Teaching is getting to be a more dangerous job every day.

Mar 6, 2004 12:14AM PST

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Police Say 2 Boys Plotted to Kill Teacher


Two middle school students described by police as clean-cut 14-year-olds were arrested for allegedly plotting to kill a teacher who had flunked one of them.

Authorities said the plot was foiled Friday after a student at Palm Middle School in suburban Lemon Grove heard the teens boasting about their plans and told his parents.

"It was within a half-hour of happening," said sheriff's Lt. Dennis Ferons.

The boys were arrested at school and a .25-caliber semiautomatic pistol belonging to the father of one of them was found hidden in bushes on campus, police said.

http://www.ev1.net/english/news/newsarticle.asp?articleID=18924996&subject=headlines


These are 14 year olds!!! Why is it so many of our youth are taking killing so casually? In my school days getting revenge was maybe putting a tack on the teacher's chair (which never worked) or at worst a frog in the chalk drawer.

Discussion is locked

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Re:Teaching is getting to be a more dangerous job every day.
Mar 6, 2004 12:21AM PST
Why is it so many of our youth are taking killing so casually?

Maybe because they see it treated as such by adults. How many people's first reaction to a murderer is too often to look for some other cause in society, his upbringing, etc. Whatever to shift blame and thus punishment from him.
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Re: Teaching is getting to be a more dangerous job every day.
Mar 6, 2004 1:44AM PST

Hi, Evie.

I think it's three things. First, teachers get no respect, and parents often take their kids' side against the teacher. Second, kids have been desensitized to violence by television and the movies. Finally (and I know you'll disagree), the pervasive availability of weapons in today's society. Stats show there are more guns per capita in America now than at the height of the Indian Wars and the Wild West.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Source of your stats, Dave...
Mar 6, 2004 2:22AM PST

Dave, what is the source of your stats? That's a chart that I'd like to have for historical reference. I'm interested in history, and that reference to "the Indian Wars and the Wild West" caught my eye as after the end of the U.S. Civil War the rate changed suddenly. A great many weapons went home (with government permission) with the discharged soldiers, not to mention the now surplus ones that hit the market. In the world of the 1800's, a weapon meant food on the table, as well as protection.

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Re: Source of your stats, Dave...
Mar 6, 2004 8:13AM PST

Hi, J.

Can't cite a direct source -- I looked for it (before posting), but came up with about five references to the data, all second-hand. I was taught this in my HS U.S. History class about 40 years ago, so this idea was around well before the gun control debates began.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Of course you can't, Dave...
Mar 6, 2004 11:28PM PST

Of course you can't Dave, it's just one of those fantasy statements made by people in discussion about guns. You just throw it hoping that people will believe it and use it as justification in the future.
Sorry. Dave, I just can't buy your innocent act, It's obviously bogus on its face. Hades, Dave, there is still no end of argument about whether or not it could have been possible for Wyatt Earp to have had a "Buntline Special" as shown in TV programs and the movies. Note: It's extremely doubtful, Ned Buntline's senario is definitely false according to Colt. The number of firearms out there in the post Civil War to 1900 period is anybody's guess.

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J try 'Arming of America'...
Mar 7, 2004 3:20AM PST

by Michael A. Bellesiles, published in the Journal of American History. Here is one link http://hnn.us/articles/930.html

Dave's statement that " I was taught this in my HS U.S. History class about 40 years ago, so this idea was around well before the gun control debates began." is a figment of his imagination as the history he was taught didn't differ from what the rest of us were, just that he has obviously "learned" different things than were in the texts. He was most likely SKIMMING even back then.

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Re: J try 'Arming of America'...
Mar 7, 2004 3:31AM PST

Hi, Ed.

It never ceases to amaze me how you can claim to be an expert on someone else's life experiences. The comment was made by Mr. Micahel Devlin, my history prof at Gonzaga High School (which, btw, was featured in a recent West Wing episode's presentation of the voucher debate:
Suppose the Democrats bought into vouchers).

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Nice try but it won't fly Dave...
Mar 7, 2004 4:43AM PST

as I noted the Arming America when YOU brought it up and when it was debunked for you. NEVER once at the time did you mention that you had learned the same in school and that is NOT something you would have forgotten to do.

Trying to switch this to a article about West Wing won't cut it ether.

I challenge you to locate a SINGLE HISTORY TEXT that was in use in your much vaunted Gonzaga High School that taught such. Although I wish you luck you will be UNABLE to find such.

Reality is really slipping for you isn't it!

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That high school, Edward...
Mar 7, 2004 4:58AM PST

Edward, that high school is a Jesuit high school. In previous voucher discussions, didn't attending public or privare schools come up? No matter, there is Elementary School.

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Hi J...
Mar 7, 2004 5:17AM PST

I know that it is a Catholic High School but am also aware that they used the same history texts available and in use even in the public schools and exactly NONE taught what Dave claims he was taught.

He remembers the school, the teacher, the year, what will you bet he can't remember the textbook because it was "too long ago"?

What will you bet that he doesn't accept the challenge because on reflection he is starting to see that he is wrong and can easily be proven overly imaginative?

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Not just this subject, Edward...
Mar 7, 2004 5:35AM PST

Edward, not just this subject in history, but many others have resulted in , shall we say, less than accurate history being offered as "proof".
You know, right now I have a History Channel program running in the background. It's about the origins and spread of the Mafia. Reasonably well done, far better than most school teachings on the subject. I mention that for a reason. Sometimes I wonder how many school kids pickup and use less than true historical "proofs" that they pick up on the web, or even more frightening, how many teachers can't tell the difference between that and the true historical facts.

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In Illinois, many teachers can't pass competency tests in the subjects they teach
Mar 7, 2004 6:05AM PST

let alone know the difference between TV and history. They do, however, know how to strike for higher wages.

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Illinois needs to get it's act together, there is no excuse except stupidity
Mar 7, 2004 6:59AM PST

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to keep teachers in their schools that can't pass competency tests. Were talking about the future of Illinois, doesn't anyone care?

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Re: That high school, Edward...
Mar 7, 2004 12:03PM PST

Hi, J.

I guess it must have been on the old forum -- I attended DC public school through 8th grade; when the Honors Track and Advanced Placement classes were eliminated, I transferred to Gonzaga (That was a lot more difficult than it sounds; though ahead of the parochial schools in most areas, I had to catch up in English grammar in order to pass the entrance exame for Gonzaga I placed third and won a half scholarship, to the utter amazement of the nun who was kind enough to lend me some of the grammar books used at our local parish school).

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Re: Nice try but it won't fly Dave...
Mar 7, 2004 12:08PM PST

Hi, Ed.

I never said it was in a history text -- it was in a side comment by my history teacher. The same one that taught us something I've come to appreciate more an more over time -- "you can't legislate morality." As for having a slective memory, guilty as charged. My memory isn't perfect (certainly not "photographic") -- I remember facts and statements in context; the context for the discussion of gun ownership was during the discussion of the Westward expansion. BTW, he wasn't saying that there weren't a lot of guns in the West, but rather that the West was the most sparsely settled part of the country, and that guns were rare elsewhere, particularly in the cities.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Sure it was Dave, sure it was...
Mar 7, 2004 2:39PM PST

And it still is BS and you know it.

Initially when you brought this Arming america BS up you failed to mention any such "side comment". Then above you state you were "taught this in my HS U.S. History class about 40 years ago". Next you will be turning this into the equivalent of a YACHT.

Greg Hines would be proud of your attempt but disappointed by your scuffing.

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Re: Sure it was Dave, sure it was...
Mar 7, 2004 10:29PM PST

Hi, Ed.

Frankly, I don't recall being involved in the "Arming of America" thread -- it's possible I've forgotten, or alternatively that it came at a time when I wasn't very active on the board, due to work, vacation, or whatever. Not having mentioned it before proves exactly nothing.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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This from someone who just said...
Mar 8, 2004 3:27AM PST

he "remembered" all the little off the cuff comments back in High School?

Think really hard and you should start remembering a couple of threads back in the old forum that started off with the Death Penalty and evolved into your bringing up this "Study". Think around August-October of 2001 and again in January-February of 2002 because that is when YOU brought it up just as you did now only back then you knew the name of the Author and the Title. The second time was because like normal you refused to follow links provided that DEBUNKED the "study" and discredited the author (who shortly after resigned his position amid the heaped ridicule of his peers and fellow faculty.

This is one link provided you but being the National Review you blew it off as normal--maybe you will READ it this time as well as an update I just recently found here http://www.nationalreview.com/nr_comment/nr_comment012902.shtml

If you READ them you will not need to further embarass yourself by continuing to cite fabricated information as fact. At least one can hope although you apparently have yet to read O'Neill's own words putting the lie to what you claim he said so often.

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Re:Of course you can't, Dave...
Mar 7, 2004 3:38AM PST

"The number of firearms out there in the post Civil War to 1900 period is anybody's guess."

My grandfather, born in the 1880's, gave me his double barrel shotgun when I was 9 years old after I used it to kill my 1st rabbit (for food). He said when he was young every kid had a gun for getting game.
So, my guess is that we find out the population of males over the age of 9 before 1900 and we will have a pretty good guess of the number of firearms.

I still have the old Damascus(s) twist barrel shotgun with large **** hammers and a side lever break as opposed to top lever break.

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Hmm...just noticed that the filters put **** for the name of Rooster hammers. :-) (nt)
Mar 7, 2004 3:44AM PST

.

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Could it have been either of these two old history schoolbooks?
Mar 15, 2004 1:09PM PST
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Re:Source of your stats, Dave...
Mar 7, 2004 3:43AM PST

You've heard me talk about my job and how I'm a fly-on-the-wall a lot of times. I've built and later remodeled three indoor gun ranges. The gun culture isn't right of the surface of society where it's easy to see. But at the range, and particularly at the counter, you hear a lot. It ain't nothing for one of these guys to own 3 or 4 hundred guns. More common it's 10 to 30. When they're not talking ballistics they're ranting about Liberals and the UN or what Hanady said on the radio.

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Joking, I guess...
Mar 7, 2004 4:13AM PST

You said, "It ain't nothing for one of these guys to own 3 or 4 hundred guns." Just calling the value of the average gun $50 (low estimate) 400 of them would be $20,000.
I wonder if even Norm Flayderman owned 400 guns all at once.

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A little skepticism is,
Mar 7, 2004 6:08AM PST

I think, in order.

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Not a joke. "It's an investment, man."
Mar 7, 2004 9:06AM PST

Hi J,

I guess there IS a difference between a survivalist and your run-of-the-mill gun-nut. I don't know how common these guys with arsenals are. From talking to the shooting range owner, who worked the counter, more so than you might think. It's probably an over reaction to the round-em-all-up black-helicopter stories. They do exist. At least I believe they do, and the range owner.

It's not a big deal to me really. I don't feel particularly threatened.

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Your point?
Mar 7, 2004 4:14AM PST

Care to share what you have overheard eavesdropping on liberal academics discussing minorities and the poor when neither are within earshot of a voting booth? LOL

Evie Happy

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Ain't no such thing 'round these here parts. :-) - Lonesome Bob - (nt)
Mar 7, 2004 9:11AM PST

.

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Only the Brady Bunch could cook up those 'stats'...
Mar 6, 2004 2:54AM PST

cite the source and I will again cite the discredited report. Right up into the 1950s there were VERY FEW homes anywhere in the US that did not have at least one firearm that was readily available to anyone in the home. There was however accountability and a knowledge that if a parent or other elder told you to never touch or play with something (regardless of what it was) you didn't do it because you knew there would be hell to pay. Thank Dr. Spock for changing that.

The one main cause that is most often overlooked is the simple fact of media circuses causing an abundance of copycats.

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Re:Only the Brady Bunch could cook up those 'stats'...
Mar 6, 2004 3:54AM PST

I agree with you Ed, My Son and his Wife have quite a few guns, with 4 kids in the house! They wouldn't dare touch one of James guns! They very much respect the fact that their Father means business when he say's don't touch!

Glenda

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And something else......
Mar 6, 2004 3:56AM PST

He also taught them safety in shooting and caring for weapons! They know what a gun does!
Glenda