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General discussion

Switching to a Mac

Oct 21, 2006 8:55AM PDT

Dear Macfriends,
I have been using a Dell Laptop with Windows XP for the last 1 year. Or rather I might say I have had a crash course on how to torture a computer user in hell for this one year. I have had spywares, adwares, viruses wreaking havoc until finally my windows decided one day to stop booting up. I have nothing but curses for the customer support at Dell. Being a scientist, I also need a stable computer which will run for the next 4 years atleast.and hence...
I want to switch over to Mac. All that I have read in this forum makes me feel I am about to make the right decision. However I need some advice so as to make my choice much more determined

1.How is Os X as far as work in Animations/Multimedia is concerned. Does it give a better performance than XP? My wife is bringing along softwares like 3D Studio Max, Flash, Adobe Director, CorelDraw which are for the Windows Platform. If I have both XP and OS X installed in my Mac, will these softwares run?

2. Will I need to seperately buy MS Office while buying my Mac or does every Mac have MS Office installed?

Discussion is locked

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Item 0.
Oct 21, 2006 9:02AM PDT

0. About those viruses and pests. It's a shame that you didn't post about this earlier in our forums. Members would share what they use to fend off the pests.

1. "My wife is bringing along softwares like 3D Studio Max, Flash, Adobe Director, CorelDraw which are for the Windows Platform. If I have both XP and OS X installed in my Mac, will these softwares run?"

Only in Windows, but then we are back to the same virus/pest issues you suffered in the past. Just like repeating a formula you can expect the same trouble with Windows whether it be on a PC or a Mac.

2. "Will I need to seperately buy MS Office while buying my Mac or does every Mac have MS Office installed?"

Yes and Apple does not supply MS Office. Maybe you'll see some 30 day demo but that's not long. I continue to use alternatives like Open Office.

Bob

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A partitioning of objectives
Oct 21, 2006 12:24PM PDT

In order to bypass the possibility of infection by virus while using XP in a Mac computer, I can run internet based applications only on OS X platform while running XP specific animation softwares only on XP platform. After all that is why, Mac computers have that facility of using 2 operating systems , right? In order to use each operating system for it"s own advantages.

Since I have always used MS Office I might be sounding naive, but are OS X compatible alternatives like Open Office viable/better alternatives to MS Office. Personally though I have been using MS Office programs I have found them rather cluttered and heavy but they did serve my purpose.

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Sadly that though won't save Windows.
Oct 21, 2006 1:01PM PDT

With all due respect my thought is "Nice try." Without protection, Windows is just too fragile.

About Open Office. It's what I use.

Bob

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A partitioning of objectives
Oct 21, 2006 1:27PM PDT

In order to bypass the possibility of infection by virus while using XP in a Mac computer, I can run internet based applications only on OS X platform while running XP specific animation softwares only on XP platform. After all that is why, Mac computers have that facility of using 2 operating systems , right? In order to use each operating system for it"s own advantages.

Since I have always used MS Office I might be sounding naive, but are OS X compatible alternatives like Open Office viable/better alternatives to MS Office. Personally though I have been using MS Office programs I have found them rather cluttered and heavy but they did serve my purpose.

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No, this will not shield Windows.
Oct 22, 2006 12:30AM PDT

Someone could see you a document with a worm, and there are many other ways in. It does not require the internet connection to infect Windows.

Hope this helps,

Bob

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There are a couple of things going on...
Oct 21, 2006 9:40AM PDT

Since you run Windows XP today, you have XP versions of the applications you want to use. If you run Mac OSX, you will need Mac OSX versions of the software applications you want to use. You will probably have to buy them - again... but keep reading... An application written for the Windows XP operating system cannot be installed or used by the MacOSX operating system just as an application written for the MacOSX operating system cannot be installed by the Windows XP operating system.

From what I can tell, 3D Studio Max and CorelDraw look like they are only for XP.

Flash and Adobe Director are - or soon will be - available for Intel-based Macs.
http://www.adobe.com/products/pdfs/intelmacsupport.pdf

I have not done the research, but suspect there are applications equivalent to 3D Studio Max and Corel Draw available for MacOSX.

When you boot your Macintosh Intel-based machine from MacOSX and run your applications that were written to run under MacOSX, you remain in that environment - with all the advantages that MacOSX provides for.

When you boot your Macintosh Intel-based machine from Windows XP and run your applications that were written to run under Windows XP, you remain in that environment - Just like if you were booting Windows XP in a Dell or HP or whatever... so you get all the virus issues to go along with that environment. You need all the normal anti-virus, anti-spyware, service pack and (what seems like) weekly security updates and all the other stuff that goes with Windows.

Microsoft Office X has a demo installation on newly sold Macintoshes - so you would need to buy it from Microsoft, or get the whole package from wherever Microsoft Office X is sold (like the Apple Store or other brick/mortar or online stores). MS Office for Mac will not get infected with viruses from Windows like Windows machines get infected with them, but if you get an infected document from a Windows-based machine, your Mac can forward that infection to another Windows-based machine. If you are expecting MS Office documents from Windows users, it would be nice if you installed antivrus software (and keep it updated) so you don't forward viruses along.

NeoOffice.org has available an open source free download of their office suite - which has Word, Excel and PowerPoint and draw applications which are MS Office compatible... without the Windows viruses.

I hope this makes sense... and I hope it helps.

I'm sure you'll get other posts...

Bill

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XP internet free
Oct 21, 2006 1:45PM PDT

I have an XP computer system that has never seen the internet. I can download updates. patches and drivers on my Mac and write an ISO 9660 disc, walk it over to the XP machine and load them from the CD. I feel as long as I download from trusted sites there is no need to run antivirus software on the XP machine. So far this has worked very well and the XP machine has never run better. In the case of a partitioned system I don't know if the Mac system can "see" the XP system or not, if it can then the disc would be unneccesary. I agree that Open Office is a good alternative to MS Office, and it is free.

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Buying according to work needs
Oct 21, 2006 2:36PM PDT

I would like to take this opportunity to first thank all those who took time(however little) to help me.
I would now like to pose another query. Whenever I asked people who worked on a Mac as to what is the reason of choosing a Mac machine over a Windows machine, I always got one standard answer. It depends on what you want to use the Mac for. Now I would like to specify what I would like to use it for and would entertain comments as to my choice

1. Being a scientist I need to store data on a continual basis for the next several years. Not only will this data be static (which can be stored in disks) but fluid, (has to be on a hard disk). I need a computer which is sturdy and assures me against a threat of viruses/spywares

2. My wife is a professional teacher of animations and multimedia. She needs a sturdy powerful machine which will give her enough freedom to do what she wants in her work area. (I have heard Mac is better if your work involves animations making audiovisuals . How? I really dont know.)

3. I need to make and run imaging programs, simulations and time series videos. I might even want to start basic programming at a later stage.

4. I compared the price of a HP Pavilion with an iMac (hardware configurations same with of course a McAfee deal for HP) and HP actually cost me more. However I am sure with rebates and discount coupons HP will cost me lesser but not a great extent.

These atleast are my chief reasons. I assure you that I am aware I might be sounding a bit vague. Nevertheless,I would love to have constructive criticisms and advice regarding my choice to go for a Mac instead of a Windows Machine.

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What about hard disk failures, human error and more?
Oct 22, 2006 12:33AM PDT

What I find are people that never have a backup of their work. I've helped too many reclaim their thesis papers and more over the years.

The lesson apparently is never taught but learned.

Bob

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I agree
Oct 22, 2006 6:29AM PDT

Dear Bob,
I agree with you as to the fact that this is a lesson which is mostly learned the hard way. I have suffered and hence am willing to learn. Which is one of the reasons, as I stated why I would also go for a Mac. To keep data while using a PC, I have to keep doing backup continuously. I would still do that on a Mac.
However do you find the reasons I gave for my going for a Mac feasible? Are there more reasons? One of the reasons I wish to also have XP as a platform is because the animation softwares that my wife has (compatible for XP) and it is too expensive to buy them again ( this time compatible for Mac).
Ram

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Yes, it's a good reason. But...
Oct 22, 2006 7:02AM PDT

Running XP whether it be on the Apple or other hardware requires all the protections whether we connect to the internet or not. You may find someone that will write such is not required but they haven't seen the results of an infected Word or other document. We even have "images" or pictures that can crash Windows. With Windows, no matter what hardware we have to arm ourselves to the eyeballs or suffer. It's out choice here.

Let me share it's not that expensive either with Free AVG, Zone Alarm, EWIDO and such you read about in our Security Forum. Some have written they let such protection lapse because the subscription ran out. Sadly the price of protection is free, but getting the knowledge takes some effort.

-> Yes, the reasons are valid and my replies are mostly to dispel a thought I've seen going around about XP on Apple being somehow immune to the usual Windows problems... Also to share that backup is never optional.

We always backup what we can't lose. If you can afford to lose a day, a week, or such then that's where we set the schedule for backup.

Bob

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I sympathise with your problem but,
Oct 22, 2006 11:32AM PDT

there as a number of software company's who will be happy to charge only the upgrade price to move from one platform to another.
Give them a call and see if they are willing to move your license from Windows to Mac, either for free or for a small sum.

It's worth a try


P

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AppleCare Protection Plan
Oct 22, 2006 2:45PM PDT

Dear friends,
I had another query before going for the purchase. The AppleCare prrotection plan seems a very tempting option to take, but at the same time it is expensive. What would you suggest I do? I guess anything protective is worthwhile and the choice between buying and not buying is always one of compromise between the breadth of ones wallet and a sense of security. But having said that, I would rather go presently for a practical option rather than a hyperideal one. If you get my point.
Ram

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Yes defiantly buy it
Oct 23, 2006 6:19AM PDT

Yes Apple care is a great investment especially for portables believe me I know from experience with my MacBook

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Non portable? What experience?
Oct 23, 2006 8:34AM PDT

I am thinking of purchasing a nonportable iMac. It would be a great help if you could elaborate what experience you had with your Macbook which urged you to advise me on the same?
Will the Apple care protection Plan save me against a complete loss due to possible virus attacks if I run XP on my Mac computer?

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RSD
Oct 23, 2006 8:39AM PDT

The macbooks had a heat sync problem which caussed them to shut down randomly but more frequently on start-up. I have the exact problem and I'm sending it in for repairs when I have time, which should be sometime this week.
However that problem has been resolved and is only a problem for the first few batches.

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Had the same problem
Oct 26, 2006 9:01PM PDT

It happen to mine too the Apple care guy siad it was a problem with the logic board and miscommunication with the rest of the Hardware he wasn't specific but thats what he told me

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RSD fix (?)
Oct 27, 2006 11:06PM PDT
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NO!
Oct 23, 2006 9:16AM PDT

The AppleCare Protection Plan ONLY covers defects in the hardware and has nothing to do with software.
If you run XP on your new Mac and do not have any virus protection for the XP side, APP will only laugh at you for being so silly.
You will find no protection plan that will cover you in the event of a virus attack.

Just because XP is running on a Mac, does not make it any the less vulnerable to virus attacks. It is still Windows and still full of holes.

P

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Understood Loud and clear but..
Oct 23, 2006 10:07AM PDT

Let me first thank you for getting across your point. Let me also add another complexity to this. I will be buying an iMac with both Operating systems. I will also purchase an Antivirus for XP. DO

1. Need to also protect my Mac OS X with antivirus/antimalware? Do such programs exist? Is the threat clear and present?

2. Is buying Apple Care protection for my hardware a practical decision? Is the hardware for Mac desktops fragile in anyway so as to take this preventive/preemptive step?
Ram

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Its your decision but I would
Oct 26, 2006 8:58PM PDT

1. No you don't need a virus program for OS X. Tiger gets no viruses and if we do get one (occasionally as it is) a fix usally comes out a day later I think the last one for Tiger was last year. So no Norton Anti-Virus for the OS X partition is a waste of Money

2. Buying Apple Care is a good decision and almost a requirement for portables but for desktops it is a good idea but its not necessary since your not going to be carry around your iMac, but with softaware or a hardware failure or basically anything that could happen to your Mac Apple Care covers so it has some perks, also its less expensive that Apple Care for portables by almost two hundred dollars reflecting its usefulness

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No, Apple care does not protect against "virus" infections.
Oct 27, 2006 1:05AM PDT

Apple care is a HARDWARE protection plan.
Its mandatory for a laptop.

If you want to purchase the 2 year extension above the 1 year that comes standard with the Mac, you have to purchase it within 1 year of the machine purchase.

In other words, you dont have to cough up the money for Apple care at the time you buy the machine. You have a year.

AC is expensive, but the service is great. Note that it does not cover a machine with physical damage. If you drop it, you pay to have it fixed.

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17 Year Consultant Speaks
Oct 26, 2006 9:48PM PDT

Although your computing experience will be less jeopardized on the Mac, I believe you may be asking the wrong questions and looking for the wrong answers. This is where a consultant would normally come in, and you might seriously want to consider locating one in a professional sense (for the same reasons you wouldn't engage in a extensive contract without an attorney). In specific:

(A) Why are you looking at a laptop or even a low-end desktop? You are a scientist (which usually means processor & system intensive tasks analyzing data sets), and you also mentioned both video decomposition/analysis (always hardware intensive) and animation/multimedia (also hardware intensive at the creation stage).
This is especially problematic when you have a four-year horizon expectation for the hardware lifespan. A much more realistic approach would be to qualify whether a desktop would serve you better than a laptop (because desktops, at least on the Mac) always have significantly more speed and power, and whether you can cost-justify replacing it in two years instead of four (using the then-resale value to leverage yourself into a newer, faster unit, since depreciation on Macs is fairly linear, unlike PC's).

(B) The second question that should be asked is whether the specific core software to accomplish what both you and your other half need to accomplish is available for the Mac platform under OS X, preferably already optimized for the Intel hardware. Some of the programs you mentioned are (Adobe/Macromedia Director, Flash, Corel Draw**, MS Office). More-over, many of these manufacturers have very inexpensive cross-grades, where you relinquish your PC software license (& disks) in exchange for the Mac versions. Some of the software listed I am not aware of being available for the Mac (3D studio Max comes to mind), so you need to judge how critical those software packages are and whether they can be obsoleted or replaced with alternatives.
** Notes on Corel Draw for the Mac: Arrrrggg!!! Unfortunately, this package has caused me no end of suffering, and I have migrated all my Corel-on-the-mac clients to other packages instead.

(C) Data retention. Since your research depends so heavily on valid data retention, you should look at systems that can specifically support data back-up and duplication without user intervention. The single flaw in virtually every user's back-up schemes is that they depend on the user to trigger the back-up; after a few years of watching this failure in the early 90's, I have taken (and kept) all my clients on automated back-ups and data-redundancy systems so that the only critical thing in the whole computing process is always secured: the data. Hardware failures, lightening strikes to the power or telephone lines, etc., and what's there can be smitten into the equivalent of data pixie dust. Since this is so critical to you, plan ahead and ensure that your system supports data-duplication/data-archeiving without human intervention.

(D) Running dual OS's (XP plus OS X) -- while it can be done, and if configured "just right", can be done without serious peril for the PC side, it is my professional opinion that it is (for your particular scenario, as described, including an apparent lack of PC systems knowledge) a poor choice. Since you already have an investiture in your laptop, and the other half uses it for her multimedia creation, why not spin the laptop off to her (after having a pro clean it and protect it appropriately), and then buy the mac to address your own needs.

Cheers,
=-= The CyberPoet

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I have to agree
Oct 27, 2006 6:23AM PDT

Another scientist speaks.

I have to agree with the Cyberpoet.

We have both Windows XP and Macintosh. Everyone strictly uses Mac on daily basis and our macs range from 700MHz G4s to the latest iMacs, depends when you started in the lab. Only one ibook for strict presentation purpose. Two G5 towers with 2 250GB HDDs with double screens, best possible configurations.
Almost all of us can run major applications like Adobe creative Suite without much hassle. Some of us feel free to use our machine for video editing and they work quite well. We use MS-Office but one user is dedicated for OpenOffice which doesn't perform as good as it does on PC. G5s are dedicated to extreme computational stuff. We wrote few of the applications ourselves to use all the cores of the G5 processor.

PC is P4 2GHz with 1GB RAM and 250GB HDD, this is used only for very special stuff which doesn't work on Mac and desperately need PC otherwise it is not used.

As far as data retention is concerned, monthly backups on TDK scratchproof DVD discs and weekly backups on the institute server. At the end of year, we check all the backups and whatever is fishy, we back it up again either from the server or from the disc then clear all the data to start everything fresh.

We haven't tried dual OS. Our system admin recommends against that.

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Another option
Oct 26, 2006 10:28PM PDT

You might want to get one of the live linux CDs and use it with your old Windows machine. It's hard to give a virus to a CD that's already burned. There is a Windows emulator called Wine that runs on linux.

Software, software, software. If you or your beloved spouse really depends on a specific program, it can restrict your choice of operating systems. You can do a system restore and add some security software and hope for the best.

You can also look at sites like Source Forge to see if there are any alternatives to specialized software you're currently using.

Good luck whatever you choose.

v.

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You're making the right decision
Oct 26, 2006 10:50PM PDT

Don't fear. You're making the right decision. Mac OS X is imminently more stable than any version of Windows I've ever used. You will easily get 4+ years out of it. I'm still using a PowerMac G4 that I bought new in 2000 and it's running the latest version of Mac OS X 10.4 just fine.

In answer to your specific questions: 1. If your Mac is configured as a dual-boot system, any Windows software you load onto it should run just fine; however, I would recommend getting Mac versions of the software, if available. 2. MS Office doesn't come bundled with Macs, except in a demo version. You'll have to buy it separately. If you use Access, you'll want to get the Windows version, as the Mac version doesn't include that title. Another option would be to download the free NeoOffice suite, which is a Mac OS X native version of OpenOffice.org. It includes word processing, spreadsheet, presentation graphics, vector drawing, and database modules that rival the capabilities of MS Office and it costs not a penny. Check it out at www.neooffice.org

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Start off fresh and you'll be delighted
Oct 27, 2006 2:05AM PDT

Like a lot of new Mac users, you are starting off with a misapprehension about Macs and viruses and other nasty critters: It is Windows that is the thing to avoid. Putting Windows on your Mac will merely perpetuate the headache. Without Windows on your Mac, you will enjoy complete immunity. With it, you will have all the same headaches as before, and need all the same crazy (but vitally necessary) to keep your ENTIRE computer from bogging down the same way your Dell did. The reason why is that it is the Mac OS that makes the difference, not the type/brand of computer. So I urge you to forget installing Windows on your Mac nor using any other scheme, now or in future, that lets you run Windows versions of programs that are Windows-compatible. Consider contacting the makers of your Windows software and ask if there is a path to retire your Windows versions and replace them with a Mac version. If not, why not advertise in Craig's List and similar to see if you can find someone who is switching the other way you can trade with (yes, for some people, there really are reasons why they want to do that, like joining an all-Windows firm, for example). Also, you can get the Student/Teacher edition of MS Office (with 3 licenses!) for about $150 from almost every store that carries Mac Software. Note that the email program in the Office suite, Entourage, is essentially Outlook Express on mega-steroids that makes Outlook Express for Windows look like a tinker-toy - Entourage is, in my opinion, far and away the best and most sophisticated email program among the myriad offered on BOTH the OS X and Windows platforms. Combine it with a good spam filter such as SpamSieve, available to download from the web from it's developer Michael Tsai at http://c-command.com/spamsieve (I have no affiliation except as a happy customer), and you will have what you want for Office.

Yes, it is a pain to make the switch, but it's a lot more pain to go buy a Mac and then open it up to all the aggravation and expensive time waste (and potential loss of your valuable data) by giving it the same vulnerability you're scrapping your Dell to lose.

Enjoy your new Mac!

Don Levy
The MacTherapist
Los Angeles

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And the moral of the story is...
Oct 27, 2006 9:51AM PDT

Dear Friends,
My sincere thanks to all of you who have taken the effort to convey your opinions to me as well as conjectures which will lead me on to think of other things.
I have made the switch and purchased the 17 inch 2.0GHz iMac from the Apple Store with iWorks. I am NOT purchasing Parallel Desktop nor will be running Windows XP on my machine. The only OS will be OS X Tiger. And I feel I will be better served using Open Office since I was never overtly fond of Microsoft Office anyway.
There are certain choices and sometimes the wishes of your better and beloved half are to be complied with. Hence my queries were to purely consider alternatives and evaluate the consequences of the compromises I might or might not need to make. However the almost unanimous opinions expressed in this forum have made my choices clearer. I conclude by saying I am only too excited to be a new member of the Mac Community.
Ram

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Fantastic.
Oct 27, 2006 10:16AM PDT

I think you'll have a great ride.

Bob

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Congratulations on your decision
Oct 27, 2006 10:23AM PDT

to move forward.

You're probably going to wonder why you did not do this sooner.