Speakeasy forum

General discussion

''Swift Boats'' group member caught lying about Cambodia

I posted about this in another thread but it's buried pretty deep and thought it warranted a thread of its own. The transcript is from NewsNight with Aaron Brown:

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0408/24/asb.00.html

JOHNS: Behind the scenes, Kerry's aides were fighting the swift boat charges with unusual ferocity. They say they have evidence one of the top members of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is an outright liar.

The co-author of the book "Unfit for Command," former swift boat commander John O'Neill said Kerry made up a story about being in Cambodia beyond the legal borders of the Vietnam War in 1968.

O'Neill said no one could cross the border by river and he claimed in an audio tape that his publicist played to CNN that he, himself, had never been to Cambodia either. But in 1971, O'Neill said precisely the opposite to then President Richard Nixon.

O'NEILL: I was in Cambodia, sir. I worked along the border on the water.

NIXON: In a swift boat?

O'NEILL: Yes, sir.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JOHNS: Now, O'Neill may have an explanation for this but he has not returned CNN's calls. What does seem clear is that a top member of the swift boat group is now being held to the same standard of literal accuracy they've tried to impose on John Kerry -- Aaron.


So was he lying to CNN or was he lying to the President of the United States?

Discussion is locked
You are posting a reply to: ''Swift Boats'' group member caught lying about Cambodia
The posting of advertisements, profanity, or personal attacks is prohibited. Please refer to our CNET Forums policies for details. All submitted content is subject to our Terms of Use.
Track this discussion and email me when there are updates

If you're asking for technical help, please be sure to include all your system info, including operating system, model number, and any other specifics related to the problem. Also please exercise your best judgment when posting in the forums--revealing personal information such as your e-mail address, telephone number, and address is not recommended.

You are reporting the following post: ''Swift Boats'' group member caught lying about Cambodia
This post has been flagged and will be reviewed by our staff. Thank you for helping us maintain CNET's great community.
Sorry, there was a problem flagging this post. Please try again now or at a later time.
If you believe this post is offensive or violates the CNET Forums' Usage policies, you can report it below (this will not automatically remove the post). Once reported, our moderators will be notified and the post will be reviewed.
Collapse -
I think another member of the forum has pointed

In reply to: ''Swift Boats'' group member caught lying about Cambodia

out that many of the 'veterans' Kerry had testifying for him in those days were lying. Frequently, they weren't even veterans.

Collapse -
Re: I think another member of the forum has pointed

In reply to: I think another member of the forum has pointed

What has that got to do with the fact that O'Neill is lying? I think that you have taken the non-sequiter too far this time!

Collapse -
Ummm, I think that's the point. It has not been

In reply to: Re: I think another member of the forum has pointed

proven that he's lying, and it certainly wasn't proven on the **** Cavett show. Now, if Kerry had taken the time to get his witness on the record so that his claim could have been verified, his case would have been strengthened.

Collapse -
Re: Ummm, I think that's the point. It has not been

In reply to: Ummm, I think that's the point. It has not been

He told Nixon he was there; he told CNN he wasn't. Both statements can't be true. I'd say that establishes that he lied either to Nixon or to CNN.

Collapse -
O'Neill clarifies

In reply to: ''Swift Boats'' group member caught lying about Cambodia

O'NEILL: I was in Cambodia, sir. I worked along the border on the water. {emphasis mine}






Swift boat author tells Nixon he was in Cambodia, later clarifies statement


In an interview with The Associated Press on Wednesday, O'Neill did not dispute what he said to Nixon, but insisted he was never actually in Cambodia.

"I think I made it very clear that I was on the border, which is exactly where I was for three months. I was about 100 yards from Cambodia," O'Neill said in clarifying the June 16, 1971, conversation with Nixon.

Chad Clanton, a spokesman for the Democratic presidential candidate, said the tape "is just the latest in a long line of lies and false statements from a group trying to smear John Kerry's military service.


Perhaps an inconsistency, hardly a huge case to scream "smoking gun" that O'Neill is a liar.

I don't see how O'Neill saying anything about HIS service has anything to do with Kerry's oft repeated claims of being in Cambodia in 1968 anyway. If you read the transcript of his debate on the Cavett show Kerry tells O'Neill that things were different there when he was there anyway so it matters not what O'Neill did or didn't do. I suppose one could claim this "lie" undermines O'Neill's credibility. Fine, I'll make the charge then. All that matters is Kerry's repeated claims of a seared memory of Christmas in Cambodia in 1968 with Nixon as President.

Kerry's story doesn't add up. His own campaign is floundering over this and the best he can do is now say that the seared memory was faulty, and he was there on secret missions. Well all these decades later I think the secrets can be revealed without threatening our national security dontcha think? How about it Mr. Kerry?
Collapse -
Re: O'Neill clarifies

In reply to: O'Neill clarifies

O'Neill's recent allegations against Kerry include a flat-out denial that he (O'Neill) had ever been in Cambodia OR in a Swift Boat along the border, as I recall. In fact he said it would have been impossible for anyone to have done that despite his own statement to Nixon to the contrary (excerpt below).

It goes to his credibility, which goes to the credibility of the accusations he's made. Accusations that have been soundly refuted by people with way more credibility IMO.

This whole thing would be laughable if it wasn't so pathetically transparent.

Here's what you said: "Kerry was never in Cambodia during Christmas 1968"--and now [the Kerry campaign] has been trying to change this and say it was in January or something like that. But you say: "or at all during the Vietnam War." You're saying he was never in Cambodia, and then you say that all the living commanders in Kerry's chain of command--you spell them all out--deny that Kerry was ever ordered to Cambodia. You still stick by that?

O' NEILL: Oh, absolutely. First of all, Kerry's story, on more than 50 occasions on the floor of the Senate, and on more than 50 different occasions in interviews as recently as last summer, was that the turning point of his life was that he had undergone this deal where he had been illegally ordered into Cambodia at Christmastime--Christmas Eve and Christmas Day. Sometimes he says [it was the] "turning point of his life." As a matter of fact, Kranish, his biographer, on Hannity and Colmes described this as the turning point of [Kerry's] life. . . . The guy in command of him at that point in time was a man named Joseph Streuhli and then the chain of command would have run up ultimately to Admiral Hoffmann and then Admiral Zumwalt, who's dead. We checked with Joseph Streuhli to ensure that there was never anything like that occurring. We also know that it's a lie independent of those comments in the following two ways. In the book Tour of Duty, Kerry is placed safely in Sa-Dec, some 50 miles from the Cambodian border, writing a letter, in his words, with visions of sugarplums in his head. Second, we know he wasn't in Cambodia that Christmas Eve because everyone familiar with the entire operation series knows that the PCF, the Swift Boat areas, stopped just north of Sa-Dec, some 50 miles from the border. The areas further north were PBRs--smaller boats--and that the border was heavily guarded to ensure that nobody could go across it.

Is the border within the Mekong Delta, or is it actually on the discrete channel of the river?

O' NEILL: It's on the discrete channel of the river in that area, directly between Cambodia on the one side and Vietnam on the other, and there were gunboats anchored right there to stop anybody from going over.

There were navy gunboats anchored in the Mekong River Channel, through which a Swift Boat would have to pass.

O' NEILL: Yes. It would have been apprehended 30 miles before. But [the gun boats] were placed there because in 1967 some drunken Army guys actually went up that river and were interned in Cambodia. And so to avoid future incidents, those gunboats were placed there. And we checked with the commander of those gunboats, whose name is Tom Anderson. He's also in the book.

Did he say that no Swift Boats went by his post?

O' NEILL: Yes. The significance of "Christmas in Cambodia" is that he accused every single fellow officer--I mean every superior--of a war crime in crossing an international boundary illegally. He painted himself as a hero among villains. He said it was the turning point of his whole life many times--how many people fake the turning point of their life?


The man is lying through his teeth, either about his own trip up the border in a Swift Boat or about his claim that nobody could have done it.

Collapse -
Re: O'Neill clarifies

In reply to: Re: O'Neill clarifies

I don't see it that way. But to play devil's advocate it matters not really what O'Neill says about Christmas in Cambodia. It can be proven without a shadow of a doubt that Kerry was NOT there when he says it is SEARED into his memory that he was. So Kerry is caught in a multiple flat out lie.

Yes, Kerry's lies would be outright laughable had they not caused so many millions of vets such distress. Sad

Evie Happy

Collapse -
Re: O'Neill clarifies

In reply to: Re: O'Neill clarifies

I'm sure the accusations against Kerry are causing quite a bit of distress for those surviving veterans who were there and know the accusations to be false. They're being called liars too.

Collapse -
Actually Josh ...

In reply to: Re: O'Neill clarifies

... look around ... NONE of those vets, even those supporting Kerry will corroborate his Cambodia fairytales.

If re-opening their wounds hurts, they have Kerry to thank.

Evie Happy

Collapse -
Re: Actually Josh ...

In reply to: Actually Josh ...

This isn't about reopening wounds. It's about opening new ones by saying that the men who fought alongside Kerry and tell the same story he does are all liars.

Collapse -
(NT) (NT) They don't tell the same story about Cambodia Josh.

In reply to: Re: Actually Josh ...

Collapse -
Yup, it's the scandal of the century, isn't it

In reply to: (NT) They don't tell the same story about Cambodia Josh.

Was Kerry two miles from Cambodia? Five? Ten? We have a right to know!

This "scandal" has just gotten way too ridiculous for me. I think I'll concern myself with Al Qaeda, Iraq and the economy and leave the furor over whether Kerry was in Cambodia in December or January to others.

Collapse -
Re: Yup, it's the scandal of the century, isn't it

In reply to: Yup, it's the scandal of the century, isn't it

To repeat myself, he made the choice of this battleground.

He chose to preach his Vietnam experiences as his best qualifications for President, or so it appeared.

Otherwise, most of the criticism would be nitpicking. Relevant, but of lower priority.

Since he preaches his Purple Hearts as proof he'd be good to handle national security and the Al Qaeda threats, he has to expect rebuttal on any possible grounds. And since he chose the stance, it more or less becomes his responsibility to prove.

At least, that's my view of the situation.

As far as the other vets view, since vets take both sides of the arguments about the accounts, you have to give them all equal weight, which probably means they're all off about something, that no one is 100% correct. So the doubt as to what happen remains.

To corrupt a quote, that's my view of it and I'm sticking to it.

RogerNC

click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

Collapse -
Re: Yup, it's the scandal of the century, isn't it

In reply to: Yup, it's the scandal of the century, isn't it

It wouldn't be an issue if it weren't an oft repeated claim, and related as a turning point in his life.

Laugh all you want. One of Bush's turning points was having children and recognizing that whatever lifestyle he had with drinking was not going to make him a good parent. Kerry claims a similar, if not FAR more profound, "epiphany" occurred for him on Christmas 1968. You want to gloss over it? Your choice,

Collapse -
(NT) (NT) No comment on the truth of the Kerry lied charge?

In reply to: Re: O'Neill clarifies

Collapse -
No comment on the fact that....

In reply to: (NT) No comment on the truth of the Kerry lied charge?

....one of Kerry's main accusers is a liar?

Collapse -
(NT) (NT) Takes SELECTIVE READING to arrive at that conclusion

In reply to: No comment on the fact that....

Collapse -
Re: (NT) Takes SELECTIVE READING to arrive at that conclusio

In reply to: (NT) Takes SELECTIVE READING to arrive at that conclusion

Of course. You have to select his assertion that he was never in Cambodia, and then select his earlier assertion that he was in Cambodia. It's easy.

Collapse -
Earlier? It was the very next sentence...

and stated for clarification during a conversation.

If he had waited a few minutes or days or weeks or months or YEARS as Kerry did, then it might mean he lied, but he didn't. He clarified the comment BEFORE anyone asked.

Kind of like your using an eraser on a test to select a better and more accurate answer.

Collapse -
Re: O'Neill clarifies

In reply to: Re: O'Neill clarifies

Doesn't this pure logic of this statement give you pause though, Josh?: "The significance of "Christmas in Cambodia" is that he accused every single fellow officer--I mean every superior--of a war crime in crossing an international boundary illegally. He painted himself as a hero among villains."

The fact that he actively denounced the military before and now is trying to rewrite history to make himself a war hero leading the charge over there, instead of leading the protests over here really bothers me. It's self-serving and disrespectful of his fellow military members at the very least.

Collapse -
Re: O'Neill clarifies

In reply to: Re: O'Neill clarifies

Hi Diane:

It's a pretty poorly kept secret that we had been engaging in operations inside Cambodia long before we officially invaded, so it doesn't raise a red flag with me if someone claims to have been there before 1970.

My BIL was in Special Forces and was in Iraq long before the ground war officially started in '91.

Collapse -
I'm curious

In reply to: O'Neill clarifies

Why are you so interested in having more of Kerry's records released when you don't believe a word of the ones that are already public? If the unreleased records vindicate him you won't believe a word of it anyway so what's the point?

Collapse -
Re: I'm curious

In reply to: I'm curious

How did you come to the conclusion that I don't believe a word of those already public? I believe he has publically released only those that either show him in a good light or don't damage him too badly. If the unreleased records would vindicate him, why doesn't he release them Josh? How better to get back to the issues. Aren't you the least bit curious?

Collapse -
Re: I'm curious

In reply to: Re: I'm curious

The official records back his versions of the incidents that led to his getting medals. Are you saying you believe them now?

Collapse -
Which ones?

In reply to: Re: I'm curious

We don't have all the records for all the citations. The official records do not back up the scenario he portrays regarding how he came to fish Rassman out of the water for example. Meanwhile Josh, the official records totally discredit his Christmas in Cambodia story yet that hasn't stopped you from buying into deflecting the issue to O'Neill lied.

Collapse -
No they do not

In reply to: Re: I'm curious

I have provided you links to the Naval reg on Purple hearts.

Kerry's own diatry stated that he had not yet encountered any enemy fire AFTER he tried for the first Purple Heart and was rejected.

There is NO CASUALTY REPORT for that initial award which indicates he gamed the system to get it.

He has yet to explain how his Bronze Star citation mixed up his *** with his arm (possibly an indication that Kerry himself doesn't know his *** from his elbow) although his people were swift to claim that mention of small arms fire in Thurlow's citation proved something.

His Fitness Reports are NOT the glowing reports they seem to those uninitiated in reading such. (As an aside I have at times used the phrase "surpassed only by his peers" in Efficiency Reports and it is surprising how many think that is laudable.)

Kerry's own AAR of the 13 March '69 incident neglects to indicate any bullet damage to his or other boats.

His selectively released papers not only fail to prove anything, they give the lie to Kerry's own words that he would release ALL his records which he has b acked down on.

Collapse -
Where's the paperwork, Josh...

In reply to: Re: I'm curious

Josh, where's the paperwork that 1st Purple Heart? ALL of it. I have heard charges that he put himself in for it and it was denied. Also I have heard charges that he put himself in for it again. Are those charges true? (As well as other charges related to that medal).
One thing will quickly put them to bed if they are false, Kerry has but to release ALL of the records. So why does he not?

Collapse -
Because Kerry owes it to the veterans, Josh...

In reply to: I'm curious

Josh, Kerry "trashed" the veterans before the Senate and elsewhere. Veterans have been "trashed" for years with Kerry's Winter Soldier lies. Trash the veteran has been a sport for some people ever since those days and was continuous until Kerry became the Democratic canidate. Kerry owes it to the vererans to release ALL of his service records, as they have had Kerry's lies thrown in their faces for many, many years. (Remember the "baby bomber" posts of threads in ZD versions of the Forum?) That's the point, Josh.
I noticed that you used the words "the ones that are already public". Why were just some and not ALL made public? Josh, why are you so afraid of ALL of Kerry's records being made public?

Collapse -
Along the border does not equate to...

In reply to: ''Swift Boats'' group member caught lying about Cambodia

Kerry's claim of being 5 miles INSIDE and being shot at by South Vietnamese. 5 miles is a mighty long shot and makes it very difficult to tell who is doing the shooting even if they are wearing flourescent uniforms.

Don't you find it interesting that the rest of the transcript is not quoted although the "I worked along the border on the water." sentence y'all ignore makes it pretty clear that the selection is a bit out of context.

Also wonder why the first part of the conversation where O'Neill mentioned being a Democrat who voted for Humphrey wasn't mentioned. An inconvenience when trying to portay him as a rabid Republican?

Collapse -
Just an aside

In reply to: ''Swift Boats'' group member caught lying about Cambodia

From the Drudge Report [emphasis mine]

CABLE NEWS RACE
WEDS, AUG 25, 2004

FOXNEWS O'REILLY 2.0 [RATING]
FOXNEWS HANNTIY/COLMES 1.9
FOXNEWS GRETA 1.8
FOXNEWS BRIT HUME 1.3
FOXNEWS SHEP SMITH 1.3
CNN LARRY KING 1.1
MSNBC HARDBALL 0.6
MSNBC SCARBOROUGH 0.5
CNN AARON BROWN 0.5
CNN PAULA ZAHN 0.4
MSNBC OLBERMAN 0.3
MSNBC NORVILLE 0.2
CNBC DENNIS MILLER 0.1
CNBC MCENROE 0.0

DE

Popular Forums

icon
Computer Newbies 10,686 discussions
icon
Computer Help 54,365 discussions
icon
Laptops 21,181 discussions
icon
Networking & Wireless 16,313 discussions
icon
Phones 17,137 discussions
icon
Security 31,287 discussions
icon
TVs & Home Theaters 22,101 discussions
icon
Windows 7 8,164 discussions
icon
Windows 10 2,657 discussions

GRAMMYS 2019

Here's Everything to Know About the 2019 Grammys

Find out how to watch the Grammy Awards if you don't have cable and more.