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General discussion

Suspected Intentional Home Audio Interference

Jun 2, 2008 4:00AM PDT

Please read this and help me if you have any ideas.

I am experiencing suspected intentional interference in my home audio operation from a troublesome, highly technically knowledgeable neighbor and would like some advice on how to detect the source and hopefully how to stop it. I have 3 Onkyo TX8511 receivers on different floors of my house, with Onkyo DX-C390 CD players attached, along with 4 speakers, some with long leads, with each system.

FM radio reception with each system operates satisfactorily throughout the day until the neighbor comes home, and then at select times individual systems, or all of them, display periodic and repeated volume fade-out followed by a return to normal, brief and startling volume 5-fold increases, and sometimes volume from all systems ceases for up to 10 minutes at a time (so far).

I checked with my usual FM radio station and there is no problem with their broadcasting cutting out. I tried other stations and seemed to get similar results. I then reverted to using the CD players (instead of the FM tuners) which worked fine most of the time as well, but by the next day I again experienced the same select period interference - fading, volume increase, and silence, not in any regular order but always at similar times to the FM disruption. These episodes occur over extended periods mostly during weekday evenings to late night, and on weekends, always at specific times that would most upset my wife and me. I have reoriented my antennas numerous times, replaced speaker wires, and have even physically relocated the receiver/CD players to new locations on each floor several times, and to different AC outlets to no avail. I believe I have exhausted all normally expected explanations for these disruptions.

From a lengthy history, I have reason to believe that my neighbor could be using some type of signal generator or other device to purposely disrupt my audio systems to cause disruption and personal distress. His education, professional work experience and personal motivation would give him the knowledge, and access to necessary equipment, to undertake this. Our homes are separated by no more than 20 feet and both homes are of conventional wood frame construction. He is not a CB or shortwave radio enthusiast.

My limited knowledge tells me that this suspected signal transmission must focus on either the electronics within the receivers themselves, my electric power and the power cords to the units, or the speakers and wires from the receivers.

Anybody familiar with these Onkyo receivers, the spec sheet says that power output is 100 watts per channel with both channels driven from 20 Hz to 20 kHz, the frequency response is 20-30,000 Hz, and the FM tuner frequency response is 30-15,000 Hz. I am no expert on the relevance of these operating parameters but believe at least one of them will be significant to my predicament.

I provide these details because I would like to test for the presence of any spurious or normally unexpected signals being directed toward my house and these units that could be causing the repeated disruptions. I have a spectrum analyzer but need guidance as to what frequencies to monitor for that might be intentionally directed to, and could be causing these disruptions. Again, my neighbor is highly technically educated and trained and it is not beyond the realm of credibility that my suspicions are valid. Contact with the FCC has indicated that I will need to do my own detective work and locate the suspected illegal transmitter before they would take any action. I intend to pursue this until successful. Also, local authorities have little ability in this technical area but will be contacted for prosecution when my suspicions are substantiated.

I assume this is a unique problem not presented before on this forum. Please if you have any serious ideas, thinking out of the box from normal home audio disruption questions, please help me. My wife and I would be greatly appreciative for your positive suggestions and insights. Thanks.

Discussion is locked

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Sounds like HAM radio operator too me
Jun 2, 2008 5:06AM PDT

My Uncle is a HAM radio operator & his system would always screw with his neighbors stuff (TV & radios) up to a 1/2 mile away, so he had to dial down has 50,000wt system, but even then sometimes his neighbors stuff still go wiggy on them.
Your neighbor could be a HAM radio operator & may not want to tell you because then you would ask him to turn down the power...he could have his antenna hidden, they don't need a big tower to broadcast.

1st you need to find out if it is that neighbor, could be someone yards away. Where to start is the car radio on the same channels your having toubles with on the Onkyo, does it have the same problem?? YES/NO....

If Yes drive around the block to isolate the problem house.

If NO get/barrow a boombox (a manual radio dial box would be best) that has batteries & is also able to be pluged into the wall, find a radio station that is having the problem. Walk around the house, also try all the wall outlets, make sure to go outside the house too. Use the radio to isolate the hot stops on your property.
If all points to the neighbor you think it is coming from, you going to have to ask him, agian, what high power 'thing' is he running.

I think you have a HAM radio operator 'near' you. You could try getting a few sqft of Brass mesh to block what is coming at your house, but that would also block any radio that your tring to get that come from the same direction. I would get a few sqft of Brass mesh & play around with it, just need to find that 'sweet' spot that would block the neighbors 'stuff' & you still keep your radio stations.

& ask your other neighbors if they are having any problems, too.

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Ham Radio Operator
Jun 15, 2008 9:37PM PDT

Givemeaname:

If your uncle had a 50,000 watt system, then he was in extreme violation of ham radio regulations. Maximum power output is usually between 1000 and 2000 watts, depending on where you are (1500 watts in the US). If he was broadcasting at 50,000 watts, then I am not surprised that he was causing bad interference.

Original Poster:

If your neighbor is a ham radio operator, he will likely be more than happy to assist in solving your problems, however if he has an illegal high power radio then this may not be the case.

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If this is a ham radio problem,
Jun 2, 2008 5:09PM PDT

you should be able to pick him/her up with you am radio and hopefully you can hear the call letter and report it to the FCC.

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AM Broadcast radio is not the same as Ham Radio
Jun 15, 2008 11:35PM PDT

Most likely not. The AM broadcast bands and ham radio bands do not overlap, so the only way you would be able to hear ham radio transmissions on an AM radio is through a harmonic. Also, since practically all operation on the HF ham radio bands is single side band (SSB) modulation, an AM radio would probably not be able to receive anything understandable anyway.

Also, if this is a ham radio operator, as long as his station is being used correctly and in accordance with FCC regulations, then he is doing nothing wrong. The interference is due most likely, to the inability of the device (in this case, a radio) to reject the signals from the ham radio (something that tends to be overlooked these days with cheap electronics)

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You are absolutely correct if he/she is operating ...
Jun 16, 2008 12:37AM PDT

within regulation. You mean you have never heard of ham radio on a am radio?

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Ham picked up on radio AM.
Sep 4, 2015 8:47PM PDT

I have. Onceapon a time Amplification Modulation was the legal way ordinary Ham operators could use, and that limited to code only.
If the ham operator is over powering should be able to pick up something at the lower end of the radio dial.

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Reply
Jun 3, 2008 3:41AM PDT

Thanks for your replies so far. I will try the car radio and the boombox tests, although I truly believe these are intentional signal transmissions of some kind to distress my family.

Please tell me what to look for/where to look for the brass mesh you suggested, I'd like to try that also.

If anyone has further ideas on how to identify the signal transmissions, and how they could be affecting my stereo equipment this way, I would be very grateful.

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....
Jun 3, 2008 5:05AM PDT

For brass mesh, I would call your local hardware stores, a good electronic hardware parts store, I have even seen brass mesh in many Art & Craft stores.

What to look for is something like this (this is just one of the 1st things that poped up when I googled Brass mesh)

http://www.twpinc.com/twp/jsp/product.jsp

try to find some that has holes are little bit smaller then what you find on a screendoor.

Note the brass mesh will also block Wi-Fi, cordless phones & cellphone signals , so depending on how much & where you place the mesh, you MAY get a deadspot area on your property.


it is not really the HAM signal but it is the power that is needed to transmit is what cause the problems, they use lots of power 5,000wt is low power & 50,000wt is high power, most TV & radio stations use 5,000-25,000wts.

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This should not be trailuser's problem.
Jun 3, 2008 5:24AM PDT

Maybe it should be reported to the local fcc office and see if they can do anything about it. I remember in the old day, fcc use to sent out people with equipments to catch these violators.

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Reply
Jun 3, 2008 5:48AM PDT

I appreciate your response but I checked with the FCC and they indicated that I would have to confirm the existence of and actually generally locate a transmitter before they would even consider looking into this issue (private individuals are low priority by their scale). I have two calls in to talk to one of their supervisors for more guidance but am not receiving call backs.

Any further ideas would be appreciated.

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This is nuts....
Jun 3, 2008 6:09AM PDT

Sorry.

I *swear* Ive read about pranks where kids would hide behind windows, and start messing w/ people's systems w/ a universal remote. But your systems are on three floors.

Are you using RF to control your system? (Im a real bonafide noobie when it comes to remotes, automation, HAM, particle physics, you-name-it...

While you shouldnt have to disable anything you do not want to, you could for the interim either turn on off RF/IR repeaters.. or even control your systems manually? im just trying to brainstorm here.

Cover the IR sensors with something. Look in your manual to know where the IR sensor is exactly located.

Perhaps this will do nothing. Dunno, sorry. J.

When I want answers with AV, I usually head straight to AVS:
remote sub-forum
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=30&f=93
AV dist/networking
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=30&f=36
audio theory setup chat
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=30&f=91

bonus site, try audioholics too:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/index.php

please let us know how the hunt goes. I hope the trail gets warm.

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Reply 3
Jun 4, 2008 12:21AM PDT

I am going to try operating an old boombox my son left behind on my usual FM station using just batteries for power to see if I can rule out electrical power problems as a possible cause.

My problems have escalated last night as I was afraid they were beginning to, but I wasn't sure. My wife frequently uses a wireless headset to listen to TV while she works around the house and at night so as not to disturb my sleep (not getting much of that latley with these recurring problems). Its broadcast frequency (as per its manual) is 912.5-914.5 mhz, with a frequency response of 20 hz-20 khz. Like my FM reception and CD operation, it had also been fading in and out on occasion but last night as my wife sat within 15 feet line of sight of the transmitter, all reception suddenly ceased. She approached the transmitter to adjust it and operation resumed. Then as she left the transmitter all reception ceased again. This happened again a number of times. There is nothing physically wrong with the headphones or transmitter and she was well within range, and in fact within line of sight. I fear that a similar disrupting signal has now been directed at this higher frequency to disrupt our normal use and enjoyment of this home entertainment equipment.

Does this extended disruption at a higher frequency indicate anything to you as to possible cause? What frequencies do legitimate Ham radio operators transmit at? For what its worth, the FM reception and wireless headphone TV reception experience periods of fade out, extreme signal increase, and total silence, while the CD player shows fade out and increase, but has not yet experienced total zap out.

Any further thoughts to help me?

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FCC inforcers
Sep 4, 2015 8:55PM PDT

It used to be FCC cruised around testing the airways for violators(CB especially) but times, number of users, types and range of frequencies and lack of funds they no longer do. It is up to the individual to find, report to local authority who have the desire and equipment with trained operator to verify and enforce. Good luck.

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Incorrect Power Claims
Jun 15, 2008 11:49PM PDT

You are wrong about the power output of ham radios. Maximum Legal transmitting power for ham radio is 1500 watts in the US, not 50,000 watts. The most I have heard of in any country is 2000 watts.

AM broadcast stations can be 50,000 watts in the US, higher in Europe
TV broadcast stations can be up there too, but ham radio is always signifigantly less.

Always good to check your facts before posting.

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Hmm
Jun 3, 2008 6:22AM PDT

Well if the FCC is telling you that they need visual proof of the HAM activities before they investigate and act I think you need to try to locate the outdoor antenna that would be sending his signal firstly. Like someone said, it may be well hidden so look discerningly.

It sounds like you and your neighbor aren't buds so getting in his house to look for his equipment is pretty much out of the question (legally at least). Maybe you could pay someone that does have access to your neighbor's house to snap some pictures of his equipment if it exists inside.

Does the interfering signal also mess with other things like your TV signal or another service? If you had Comcast/Direct TV and his HAM activities were causing drops in service maybe you would pass the baton to one of those companies to pursue the problem and that might get the FCC more attentive.

Or you could just call the FBI and say you think your neighbor is running a terrorist cell out of his house with high end communication equipment that keeps disrupting surrounding electronics.

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Another Reply
Jun 5, 2008 2:31AM PDT

Still looking for some more insight as to probable causes and how to detect them.

All the interference occurs in a repeated pattern, at any time of the day, so I don't believe it is innocent Ham radio transmission. Most of it is dampening the volume of my FM reception and then returning it to normal repeatedly in 5-10 minute patterns - and now similarly to my CD players. Also the interference intensifies whenever it is evident I have moved into another location in the house (turn on a light, start the dishwasher, etc.) when I experience a tremendous volume increase for a shorter duration. These patterns make me believe that these are not random occurences and thus something I need to detect the source of and then stop it.

Please continue with any serious thoughts.

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hmm
Jun 5, 2008 3:26AM PDT

Does your neighbor really hate your family or something? I don't see the point in spending the money on a fancy signal interference device and spending the money to power it just to spite you...unless he is really that bored and has plenty of money to blow on pissing you off.

Have you confronted him about it?

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Sorry..but as I read this I keep think about "ghost whisper"
Jun 5, 2008 11:18AM PDT

Since it affect both the cd as well as fm radio, I would tend to ruled out ham radio. I wonder if power line voltage flunctuation can cause this kind of problem. Just thinking out loud.

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Reply to ahtoi or whoever knows
Jun 5, 2008 10:59PM PDT

How would I determine if I have power line voltage fluctuations to my systems? Is it relevant that electric power to my entire subdivision is routed underground rather than on overhead poles? If fluctuation is part or all of the problem, how would I go about eliminating it?

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a voltage regulator
Jun 6, 2008 3:42AM PDT

you have a volt meter??? put it on AC 220 volts, an outlet should be 120-122volts.

I still think it is a HAM, they do use a lot of power & that can also screw with peoples houses down the power line.

I am the 2nd to last house on the power line for my area, when it is hot or cold out & everyone is running their heaters or A/C's, I get a power drop & I have seen it as low as 108 volts. The few Halogen lights I have in my house dim, my fan is not as strong & my voltage regulator kicks in hard to protect my electronic.

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regulator
Jun 6, 2008 3:57AM PDT

What kind of voltage regulator do you have?

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....
Jun 8, 2008 4:29AM PDT
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Oscilloscope
Jun 15, 2008 11:55PM PDT

To see if any RF interferance is coming in through the AC lines, you really can't use a volt meter. You need an oscilloscope to see if you have a high frequency signal riding on top of the 60Hz sine wave. Even better than that would be a spectrum analyzer, but those aren't exactly something you can buy in any hardware store.

If your voltage is sagging under heavy load, it should be easy enough to see on your voltage regulator, and also by the dimming of incandescent lights.

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Oscilloscope
Jun 16, 2008 11:09PM PDT

I have a spectrum analyzer to test for through the air transmissions that might be affecting my systems. If I have RF interference coming through the AC lines, how would I set it up in order to test if I have a "high frequency signal riding on top of the 60Hz sine wave"? Your help would be greatly appreciated.

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You got a spectrum analyzer?
Jun 17, 2008 3:24AM PDT

Oh my gosh, this thing must be driving you crazy.

You know what also causes interference some time..arc welding; anyone in the area doing that. By the way you never says if any other are experiencing the same thing as you.

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Reply
Jun 17, 2008 5:37AM PDT

On an oscilloscope, attaching the scope probe across the two terminals of an AC outlet will cause a 60Hz sine wave with a peak to peak voltage of ~169V to appear on the screen. If you have a high frequency signal riding on it, you will be able to see a small sine wave of higher frequency in the line that makes up the 60Hz sine wave. Noise will also show up here, but in a disorganized fashon (see picture in the link below).
http://ledinfohub.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/05/05/power_b_low_frequency_noise.jpg

I don't know what kind of spectrum analyzer you have, but traditionally it would be connected in parallel with the AC lines, and you would see a spike at 60Hz for the AC power frequency. If there was a high frequency signal riding on the AC, then there would be other spike at the frequency of the interfering signal, and possibly several others. There will be some noise due to the imperfections of the AC power, but a strong interfering signal should be easy to see.

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The USA ham radio bands.
Dec 18, 2009 5:09AM PST
http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/Hambands_color.pdf/
maybe you could contact the aarl.org for help.
A ham would be talking and then listening, this would enplane the on and off of the interference. Do you have a RF spectrum analyzer?
If you do get a loop antenna and you can do multiple points and determine the exact location of the interference. The max ham power is 1500w. If your neighbor is running above this he is in big trouble if it can be proved.

Yes with the FCC the burden of proof is on you. I had two complaints against my FM station this year that I had to respond to and handle before the complaint went to the FCC. The fine can be BIG$$$$$$ per day!!!
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'
Jun 9, 2008 12:28AM PDT

Whatever he is doing is most likely also frying your brains; at a slow rate of course. I'd probably move if I were you, to avoid becoming a vegetable.

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WOW!
Jun 17, 2008 7:55AM PDT

I think it would be easier to just peer in some windows at night to see if he has any of this equipment...Sounds like a lot of trouble to go through just to antagonize a neighbor. I would think he had better things to do...but you never know I guess.

grc

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Sounds like RF overload to me
Jun 17, 2008 2:16PM PDT

The spectrum analyzer should find the offending signal that is overloading the front end of your receivers. It is also possible that this guy may actually "transmitting" into a dummy load. That is a load that allows the user to key or transmit a signal into this load for disgnostic purposes and not actually transmit the signal over the air thru an antenna. There sould also be a number of things in his home that are faulty that would be creating a signal strong enough to interfere or overload the frontend of the receivers you use. Again, the spectrum analyzer should find these signals. Such faults could be anything from a bad motor on a router tool, bench grinder or any motorized tool. I once had a neighbor that used an unsheilded video modulator for his video game console that would wipe out the TV reception on channels 2 to 5, even when connected to cable so nothing should be overlooked.