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Stand Your Ground case results in brawl outside Florida

by Ziks511 / July 9, 2012 11:27 AM PDT



If you caught the video on CNN it was quite vicious, and one person apparently had their jaw broken.

Just another reason to do away with this "frontier justice" law inappropriate both then and particularly now that the US is a country governed by laws.

As I seem doomed to point out, in this, as in so many things the US is centuries behind other civilized nations. In Dickens' Oliver Twist there is the mention of a Spring Gun set as a defense for a household's goods. The point Dickens was making was the inhumanity of the use of that and other items of self defense which could maim or kill. Bear traps were another.

On similar ante-deluvian attitudes, Health Care was introduced in monarchist Germany in 1870, in Britain in 1907 (by Churchill then Chancellor of the Exchequer, or in Canadian terms Finance Minister. Who in the US Cabinet is charged solely with the financial concerns of the Nation?) Health care was not introduced in France until after WW2, as one can find in Orwell's Down and Out in Paris and London.

In none of these places would Stand Your Ground have even been considered. Poaching in the 18th Century could have gotten you Transported to Australia but that was done away with in the early 19th Century. Theft was punishable by death, but that too was done away with in the 19th Century.


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WHAT ON EARTH does a brawl have to do with
by James Denison / July 9, 2012 12:50 PM PDT

validity of a law?!

Do you know how many brawls over almost anything happen in courtrooms around the country? Nutcases are jumping bailiffs and rushing the judge's benches all the time. How can you possibly try and use a bunch of brawlers as some means to claim a law caused it? Get rid of every law that might upset someone who doesn't like it or they may start a brawl?

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It is an example of the ill feeling generated by this law,
by Ziks511 / July 9, 2012 4:37 PM PDT

and that leaves aside the toll of dead and wounded. This law could have let the guy who shot the paperboy delivering his paper and then went back to bed to enjoy an unruffled sleep a few years ago.

The stupidity and fatal consequences of the law is apparent on its face when it can be used to justify the pursuit of an innocent individual merely visiting the Compound/community. He was tracked for being black, and unfamiliar to a wanna-be police officer. Maybe he fought back because of being trailed by a stranger, but none of this justifies the death penalty as imposed by Mr Zimmerman.

If Zimmerman had called the police after the assault instead of taking the law into his own hands, the kid might have gotten jail time, but he wouldn't be dead. I think that's how the verdict will be rendered. Zimmerman was not in fear of his life since he was far better armed, he was following him, which pursuit may have provoked the attack, but the kid did not have a dangerous weapon of any kind, nor was he in a position to threaten the life of his pursuer. No matter what the defense lawyer says, all of that is incontrovertible.

There was a case here where a policeman shot and killed a known mental patient who was armed with a knife. He was trying to keep people away, he never threatened any one. They could have done a dozen things rather than shooting him, as was brought up in the coroner's inquest. The policeman got off, but the ill feeling from that senseless over reaction still has consequences today.

You're going to lose this one James, IMHO, not because of Political Correctness, but because there was no credible threat there to make Zimmerman "Stand His Ground". And is any ground the gunman's ground. Doesn't this law presume the defense of home and life, not a vigilante stalking anybody to see if he can provoke a situation where he can shoot literally anybody for not lying on the ground begging for his life. Personally, I wish the boy had been Jackie Chan, who could have whipped the gunman's ***, maybe broken all the fingers in both hands, and then waited for the police and said, "Hey, I was defending myself from an armed gunman threatening my life. I didn't kill him, I incapacitated him." Then again, if Zimmerman is found guilty of premeditated murder (of which the evidence indicates prima facia guilt) and is sentenced, that may well happen in prison, and I won't shed a tear. Nor will I be bothered if he gets shanked and dies, I think he's the worst sort of bully and scum.


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Back to Zimmerman again?
If Zimmerman had called the police after the assault instead of taking the law into his own hands, the kid might have gotten jail time, but he wouldn't be dead. I think that's how the verdict will be rendered. Zimmerman was not in fear of his life since he was far better armed,

You mean IF Zimmerman was alive to call after the assault. What if it was a woman and rape? Lay back and enjoy it till it was over, then call? Would you prefer Zimmerman be dead instead? Yes, Zimmerman was armed, but should that make him put up with an assault?! How can one base a verdict that being beaten in the head isn't so bad so long as you know you are armed, but by the Ziks principle shouldn't use that to defend yourself? Should Zimmerman waited till he passed out and hope Trayvon didn't discover the gun then and use it on him? People are armed to relieve themselves to some degree of being in fear of their life, that's the whole purpose of being armed, and to use it when necessary to protect the integrity of one's body.
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Wasn't Tryvon
by MarkFlax Forum moderator / July 9, 2012 8:45 PM PDT

invited into the gated community by someone?

He was visiting. Does that presume intention to rape?


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by James Denison / July 9, 2012 9:20 PM PDT
In reply to: Wasn't Tryvon

we aren't talking intent, but assault in action. At the point of assault intent is already in action. Anyway, the rape example was to point out at what point should one use deadly force rather than let the attacker live and report it later, assuming they are still alive, which is what Ziks is assuming? My feeling is if someone viciously attacks you and you're carrying, even if he doesn't know it at the time, that's not my problem, but his as he takes a bullet. There's only one reason Zimmerman was arrested and that's politics and race baiting by activist groups.

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RE: There's only one reason Zimmerman was arrested
by JP Bill / July 10, 2012 12:09 AM PDT
In reply to: Intent?
There's only one reason Zimmerman was arrested and that's politics and race baiting by activist groups.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Good for them...their plan worked.

There will be a trail/hearing and he will be found Not Guilty and he'll walk free and be able to tell people he was found NOT GUILTY or he'll be found Guilty.

Just pretend these activist groups have the same motivation you would like to see from the Muslim community to the Taliban murder of the adulterous woman.
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your hate for Zimmerman

is clouding your common sense in the matter, and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt on that latter. There's no sense in addressing your rant further, it exposes itself.

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Let's just say that you're being assaulted and may

or may not have a weapon on you. Do you think that you would ponder the idea that the beating will be over shortly, the assailant will leave, and you have the opportunity to call the police? Do you not think that, had you a weapon, you'd never consider using it?

It does sound as though you've made a few wrong assumptions and have worked out missing pieces of the encounter in your own way rather than even entertaining the thought that Zimmerman's account was largely accurate. I'll also submit that not having a gun, knife, etc., does not make one weaponless. A good pair of fists and a certain "attitude" can be quite deadly. Zimmerman's wounds appear to be real. I suppose it's possible that he could have inflicted these on himself to cover up a cold blooded murder. I could even imagine that a police investigation would consider that possibility and need to rule it in or out at some point.

My own best guess is still that we have a situation where the young man over-reacted to being annoyed by Zimmerman and that Zimmerman didn't deliberately set out to provoke a violent confrontation.

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Standing one's ground...

When I think about it, the concept of defense of one's life and property is rather an innate human characteristic as it is with other animals. The "stand your ground" law just seems regulate that characteristic by defining what is reasonable and what is not. To prohibit people from defending themselves goes against human nature, I would think. The law just defines what is within bounds and what is not.

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