Sony LCD or Pioneer Plasma?

Will downscale to 1080i, not 720p. I would actually set the BD/HD-DVD player to scale it to 720p to get the best picture (mind you, the player would have to have a nice video processor built in).

As for the Elite/PDP comparison, I have a mixture of Elite and PDP series panels and have done side-by-sides. The Elites have the logo (of course), the side speakers (slightly better imaging, although these deserve sound that compliaments the picture, not disgraces), and ISFccc modes (wich will make it easier for the technician to calibrate the set, but has no real affect on you or your viewing). Fact of the matter is, they are using the same exact panels, chassis, and processors. The difference is pride of ownership, which, surprisingly enough, does make a difference to myself.

I will say that for the price differential, there would be no real reson to go with an Elite, not unless they are making something that the PDP line doesn't have to offer (like the ELITE PRO-FHD1 for instance, the first 1080p plasma ever, not offered as a PDP). In your case, stick with PDP.

Thanks for the insights. I appreciate your time.

-C-

Maybe My eyesight is much better than alot of peoples (20/20). But I took the pioneer home and tweaked the mess out of it and used many of the settings recommended by av science forum and other sources. I just don't see this mind blowing difference that you guys keep talking about. In fact I can see a definite screen door effect on the pioneer. Maybe its because it is not up to par on todays resoution and has to downscale everything to its inferior 720p resolution (which I see a noticable, not huge, but noticable difference from 1080p at normal viewing distance regardless of what alot of these so called studys are saying my eyes aren't capable of seeing says). THE PIONEER CAN'T EVEN DISPLAY ALL OF THE PIXELS FROM A 1080I CABLE/SATTELITE SOURCE. It has to downscale the pixels which causes loss of pixels/detail. Im sorry but images looked totally low end to me. I enjoy seeing a highly detailed picture and after owning a 1080p for 2 years before buying the Pioneer, I noticed the step down in resolution. And I am not alone in this. My biggest regret was letting so many pioneer owners throw exotic Japanese words like "kuro" at me and buying into all the hype that the pioneer was such a superior set. Its just not true. Now if the pioneer was a TRUE HDTV (1080p) I would have liked it much better. In fact, I am looking into buying one of the newer Pioneer 60 inch 1080p models which I saw right beside the 5080 and noticed a huge difference. But I am hearing alot of people tell me that I should look into a Panasonic Plasma instead. Even Pioneer realizes how the 720p models just don't cut it. They are releasing most newer models in 1080p. I would say in 2-3 years most HDTVs will be 1080p. More and more media and sources are becoming availible in 1080p.
And as for the Sony, it is one great television. and after tweaking it to the bone it became more and more evident that LCD is getting better and better.
My opinion (and this is my opinion and you are entitled to yours) is that the three best Panels in the market right now are:
#1 The Sony XBR4/5
#2 The Samsung 71F/81F
#3 The Pioneer

Chadmak09: Are you completely blind of color? Do you enjoy the blue levels of the Samsung 71/81 and Sony XBR 4/5's? Are the magenta-reds exhilarating?

What is normal viewing distance to you? It must be a hell of a lot closer than where I'm at (6ft from a 50"), because I do not see the pixel loss that you seem to.

Can you go into more detail as to what you see? I'm curious to know what I obviously have missed.

Define Low-end. Does the lack of processing errors scare you? Does an actual black make you feel like I did when I was a child (Afraid of the dark)? Do advertising campaigns scare you (we would have that one in common, I suppose)?

How does 480i/p look on you supposed FullHD 1080p sets? do you notice the increased artifacts and drag due to higher demands on the video processor? Do you notice the lack of punch in the picture and the +/-25% error green on the HDMI inputs? Because I'll tell 'ya, I can see those. Can you see the softness of 720p signals on your 1080 sets?

Have you seen Pioneer press releases yet? They are planning to continue making 720p sets for quite some time, as practically-speaking, in sizes below 50", 1080p is completly unnecessary and a waste of cash.

And instead of Kuro, does PureVision or PlasmaVision sound better to you?

Picture quality (as I have said and proven scientifically before) has absolutely nothing to do with personal opinion, rather ISF standards have shown what colors are supposed to be. There's also SMPTE specification for HD signals. Would you like to argue with many years of analytical and scietific research from the companies that created the color standard?

Lastly, you mentioned the Panasonic. I don't think I need to answer that, so long as you look at the models side-by-side. But then again, all you seem to care about is resolution. What would someone who sees things like you can do with all that color?

Don't get me wrong, I love the dark blacks and nice colors of the Kuros. They are great. But the loss of resolution/detail just isn't worth it to me to have a 720p TV. No matter how great the colors are. Thats why I would rather have the Sammy or the XBR4/5 than the pioneer. You just see more detail when watching BD-Rom, HD-DVD, or 1080i cable. I also had some dimmness and reflective issues with the Pioneer (I also had this issue with the Samsung 71f). I am the type of person who likes to open the windows and let the sun in on a nice day and this caused issues with the pioneer. The Sony is just brighter and has more "POP" to it. The colors are great on the Pioneer but very good on the Sony. I am not your average viewer. I pay extremly close attention to detal. Detail is very high on my list. And when I say detail I mean seeing the things in a program that was made for HD that you normally would not catch on a SD tV. Thats the whole reason I went High Definition. If all I cared about were color accuracys and blacks then I would have stuck with my older CRT (which is great in that category).
Now, I have took a look at a 60 inch 1080p Kuro, and This will be my next TV for sure. This one has it all. 1080p and great color and blacks. The only problem is the price right now.

With the PDP-6010FD for sure if you pay THAT much attention to detail, as even a half-blind person as myself can tell the grain and processing artifacts only visibale on television sizes above 50". 50" is the new 34" (remember the days of tubes, 34" was the largest size one could go before encountering serious stretching and clarity issues).

With that being said, you should have already have figured this out by viewing the 5010FD and the 6010FD side-by-side as I have. If you have not or have and cannot see a difference, than you must be off with your 720p/1080p assesment, as the difference here is much greater than the 720/1080 one.

Please take a look at the 5010FD, as it is 1080p (and, for one who looks at detail as much as you, would be the ideal choice for the rooms with the XBR4/5 and the 71/81F) and has the Pioneer color, black, and processor. I think only then will you be satisfied.

I don't know if I will be happy enough with a 50 inch. Before I decided to go flat panel a about a year ago, I had a 60 inch SXRD. I got really used to the screen size and didn't like going down in size. but the price for a tv over 50-52 inches in the flat panel categorie is very expensive (unless you want a low quality one). I guess what I want is a HDTV that is 60-inches or larger and offersthe best possible picture, resolution, blacks, color,etc. So I guess the 6010 will be the one. I do not want to go rear projection again thats for sure (although I love rear projection TVs, but off angle viewing and alot of other issues drive me away from them). The 2 TV's I am looking at ight now are the Panasonic I mention before and the 6010. What are the big differences between the two? I talked with a salesman at HHgreg and he tried to tell me that the Panasonic is pretty much just as good as the 6010 (but then again he is trying to sell me a panasonic also becasue they don't offer Pioneer Plasmas).
Does it look like the prices of the newer Pioneer 1080 plasmas are going to go down anytime soon? I am wondering if I should wait until a tear or two before taking the plunge into buying another HDTV (My family thinks I am nuts for buying so many TV's, I am running out of rooms in the house to put TV's in, so I am running out of excuses to buy another TV). Wouldn't it be nce if you could trade in your HDTV for a nwerer model every year or two, or lease them like a Car. This way you can stay up to date as new technology changes. Oh yea, I was wondering if 120Hz is possible for plasma? I have gotten used to the way it make movies and other things look and was wondering if this will be availible with plasma anytime soon. I wonder if plasma will ever go that route if possible (it may not even need to, but it would be a cool feature to add). I turn my 120Hz off and on depending on what content I am watching so that would be nice to have when I get my new TV.

later, chadmak09

I was wondering if you have had a chance to read Cnets review of the XBR4?
They are stating that the Sony with its "spot on" greyscale, has better color accuracy than the Pioneers. They even have "even the 5080" written right beside the statement. This is written in the performance section of the review.
They also say that the Sonys 120hz outclassed the pioneers smooth mode.
They agree the Pioneer has better blacks but agree that the Sony's Blacks are "mighty close" (thier words, not mine).
Put on top of that the risk of burn-in, high power cost, the fact that it is not a true HDTV(1080p), the screen reflecting light like a mirror (which is a pain in the butt, or should I say Pain in the "eye"), and the much dimmer image.
So why is it not obvious that the XBR4 is better than the Pioneer??
I agree Blacks are very important! But there is much more to a good picture than Blacks. There is more to contrast than black.
The Sony is the better Television thats for sure.
The plasma wins when it comes to Blacks but that gap is narrowing fast and LCD is catching up fast in that categorie.
Oh, and most people who buy one of these TV's will be using it for High definition not Standard. So who cares about its ability to process an inferior signal (480i/p). HDTV is the future.

Movies continue to broadcast the old, classic movies pretty much forever? Chaplin, Our Gang, Three Stooges, Cagney, Bogie, & John Garfield were not filmed in Cinemascope or Technicolor, let alone high def with 7.1 surround. They may ebb, but will not disappear.

The industry found massive economies of scale ramping up LCD production. I find no fault with watching my LCD, but it's the smaller, secondary set. I will have to see if I can get comfortable with a huge & very light LCD as the primary viewing vehicle.

Though not currently, most my TVs over the years have been Sonys that I paid a bit of a premium for. I think we still need whatever degree of superior internal processing Sony can muster. And we'll continue to face a name brand premium for it.

Enjoyable viewing, everyone.

From CNET, re: Sony XBR4 series:

"The good: Excellent black-level performance for an LCD; accurate color; 120Hz processing smooths judder in motion; fine screen uniformity and off-angle viewing for an LCD; numerous picture controls; solid connectivity with three HDMI inputs and one PC input; distinctive "floating glass" design; interchangeable bezel color option.

The bad: Expensive; benefits of 120Hz blur-reduction hard to discern; smooth motion seems unnatural for film-based material and introduces some artifacts; main menu system kludgy to operate; many picture adjustments seem unnecessary and/or harmful.

The bottom line: Although not quite as impressive as the best plasmas, the 46-inch Sony KDL-46XBR4 outperforms any flat-panel LCD we've tested so far."

Not exactly the kind of review that would make me want to dump my Pioneer PDP-5080HD in favor of the Sony XBR4. I want smooth motion for my film-based material. This is critical for my needs. Also, I am certainly not interested in a TV that introduces artifacts during processing.

Let's get real here. I wish that all programming today were high quality uncompressed 1080p sourced, but this is the real world. Much of what I want to watch is still only available currently in SD. Therefor, I require a TV display with a state-of-the-art processor such as the Pioneer 5050 possesses. The inferior system that the Sony XBR4 series uses simply won't do.

If you pay close attention to the above CNET review, you will see an implied comparison to Pioneer plasmas and SONY flunks!

Sorry, Sony just isn't quite yet in the same league.

Actually, in the Sony's XBR defense, you can turn motionflow on and off, but the set still stays at 120hz. Cnet, said that it was the best LCD, to date, that they have reviewed. I believe the review was for the 46 inch XBR4, but they said it should apply to the 52 inch XBR as well.

Sound and Vision magazine's review stated that the 52 inch XBR produced a slight edge in picture stability, although the improvement was subtle. They did not notice the artifacts that were mentioned by Cnet, nor did they seem to see or mention smooth motion as being something of concern or at least they did not mention it as an issue. While you cannot disable the 120hz feature, you can turn off motionflow when watching film sources.

Home Theater magazine rated the Toshiba Cinema Series 52LX177 and the Samsung LN-5271F higher than the Sony XBR. Toshiba was the winner by one point over the Samsung. Still, Cnet said that the Sony was the best LCD they have reviewed. Overall, most reviews I have read put the Sony XBR as the top LCD set when all factors are considered, price, viewing range, performance in different lighting situations, availability of controls and adjustments, uniformity of picture. Still, Home Theater gave the edge to the JVC set in viewing angle.

It is definitly something to point out that Sound and Vision magazine, Home Theater magazine, and The Perfect Vision Magazine all state that the new Kuro line, whether or not they are the Elite versions are the best flat panel displays you can buy.

I like LCD sets. I agree with what Cnet said about the Sony based on the chances I have had to see it in a few different showrooms and settings. I think it is a fine TV, but am not sure that it beats the specs of the Kuros. My main concern with the Kuro is how will it perform in a variety of lighting conditions, is it dimmer than an LCD, since I like a bright picture, even if it is not closest to normal, and, in particular, the reported buzzing sound with the Kuro is something that really bothers me.

Purchasing a TV set used to be much, much easier. Now everything I read brings up another issue. If the Kuro, with it's better ability to up convert SD, it's accurate color spectrum, if it does well with a variety of light sources, has no reflection problems, and if the buzzing sound, which was mentioned by more than one reviewer, were not an issue, then it would be a simple choice. It would also be simpler if my wife was not so sold on Sony advertising or liked the Sony as displayed in the showrooms.

I have the PDP-5080HD. No buzzing sounds whatsoever. I can brighten the picture beyond any level that you would ever need. I live directly on the ocean on the east coast of Florida. TV is on south wall very near an 8 foot sliding glass door that faces toward the rising sun in the AM. I have true southern exposure with windows all along the southern side of the TV room. I am NEVER without sun shining into this room all day long. Now....just as long as I tilt my vertical blinds so that the sun does not shine directly on the screen, there is never a reflectivity issue.

Nuff said????

Go buy a Pioneer plasma. You will not be sorry.

The Dimm screen and major reflective surface of the pioneer was one of the main reasons I returned it. The reflection issue is also the reason I took back the Samsung 71F but the Sammy didn't have as Dimm of a image as the Pioneer.
Everyone knows that LCD is much brighter and more vibrant than Plasma. I guess the Dimm image is how the Pioneer is able to produce such deep blacks. But myself, I want a TV that has good blacks as well as a bright clean image. Thats the definition of contrast. And I don't really understand where people get that the Pioneer does such a great job with Standard Definition. It looks a little better than the Sony's Standard performance but I haven't seen an HDTV yet that does that good of a job with Standard (480I/P). I can't bring myself to watch Standard anymore unless I just have to . A high definition television acts like a magnifying glass for a low signal and it doesn't look good on any flat panel Television in my opinion. Maybe the Pioneer looks a little better but 480i/p looks like crap on the Pioneer and the Sony to me. I get all of my local and premium channels in HD so I really have no reason to watch Standard anyway.

Dude, Did you just say "state of the art" in the same sentence as the 5080?? thats a funny concept. Especially sense the 5080 is about as state of the art as my toaster oven. 720p!! Whhhheeewweee.lol. Thats not even half the pixels the XBR4 has. But I guess the pioneer is for you if all you watch is standard definition reruns of andy griffith. But most people in the HDTV market today want a Television that performs. But to be honest, the 5080 does horrible with stanard also. As does most HDTV's (I really should not put the 5080 in the HDTV category since its not true HD 1080p). You should look into the Sony XBR4 or the Sam-lnt-71/81f or the Pioneer 5010/6010. These are real HDTV's.
So to me its really funny that you are bragging on the 5080's performance with standard. Because that just goes to show that the 5080 is not worthy of being considered HD.
Blacks are all it has to offer (with the exception of horrible color and green accuracy, and a dimm image, reflective screen, burn in potential,and many other problems).
Most real HDTVs (1080p) are bad with standard definition. Its not a processor or quality thing, its just that a standard definition signal is not made for a true HDTV. Even the new Pioneer 1080p plasmas are bad with standard definition. Theres just not enough information in a standard signal to display a good image on a real "state of the art" HD television.
But maybe I am wrong about all of it because the word "kuro" is japanese and exotic so that makes it a better TV. I should just forget about performance.

Hey, NS.
Didn't you say that pioneer said they were going to be releasing 720p sets for some time???
Where do you get your info??
You may want to take a stroll over to the AVS forum and look at the new postings.
Pioneer announced they are completly dropping 720/768p sets!
So hold on to your 5080 becasue it will be obsolete very soon.
It seems pioneer has realized that 768p is inferior.
ALL Generation 9 pioneer sets will be 1080p.
Did I not tell you this would be happening months ago??

First and foremost, I have heard no such news from Pioneer, beit their website press room section, or my contact with Pioneer, Justin Kraft.

I would imagine that the demand for 1080p has grown, as more and more people are stepping into their local BBY's and CC's and being told that 1080p is a must. I would also imagine that those with an IQ over 5 realize that 1080p is the native resolution for most BD, and it is absolutely "necessary" to have 1080p. I would then imagine that all those with an IQ over 15 would look at some 1080p HDTV's with respect to color and would find that many of them do not match that of a Pioneer plasma, much less come close.

I promote the 5080HD to those with the demand for the best picture they've seen at 6.5ft plus viewing distances. Most people with 50" sets sit more in the range of 10-15ft from their screen, which is too far to appreciate the detail of 1080p. The 5080HD is also down $1,000 from it's original retail price at $3,500. I would challenge you to come up with a TV that is 2,500 or less, 50 inches, 1080p that has more contrast and color accuracy than the Pioeer PDP-5080HD. Not happening! The 5080HD accepts 1080p/60/30/24 and would be perfectly suited for one looking for a television that performs in all areas. Also, there has been no date or street price on the new Gen9 Kuros from Pioneer. This very well may be a while away.

Putting a Pioneer PDP-5080HD on clearence would only increase sales of 720p sets, as it would be an even better value than it is now (hard to imagine). But I suppose it goes back to whether one is bout quantity or quality. I for one choose quality, as that "obsolete" HDTV you talk about will outdo anything that 95% of people in the US have as a TV, and it will probably take on whatever you may have as well.

It may well be that companies eventually go to all 1080P sets since it is a marketing tool. I have seen the 5080 right next to the new Kuro 50 inch 1080P and I could not tell the difference in the picture. I do not believe I could tell the difference with Blu-Ray or HD-DVD. I like the Sony. It is a fine LCD. Once OLED becomes more mature, perhaps those will show an increase in picture, perhaps the new laser sets will.

I don't know Chad, the Sony is a great set for an LCD, but right now the 5080 is selling on Amazon.com for less than $2,200.00. The Sony LCD is over $3,000.00 and the Kuro seems to do better with SD and no motion artifacts at all.

I like both sets for different reasons, but NS, you are correct, at least from my observations, the 5080 is the best value out there.

Justin Kraft contacted me in regards to the 1080p-only rumor:
"The 9g products will start to arrive on the storefront during
the Summer. Exact models and pricing will be announced in May. The new sets do have a much Higher Contrast ratio than our Current lineup ( another 80% increase in Contrast.) As far as 1080p goes I have heard a rumored that we will be doing just 1080p but it is just that at this point. I will get confirmation closer to the release date. I hope this helps you."

It seems as though Pioneer is outdoing themselves again. They are planning to incorporate their extreme contrast conceptinto their mainstream slowly it seems. The 1080p does indeed look like it is here to stay, not that much practical benefit will come with it, but as a marketing tool, yes.

I am looking forward to purchasing a g9 to compare to the 5080 (as I do most high-end teles), but I still remind the current state of things: The Pioneer PDP-5080HD is still the best value going and will only continue to better as it moves more towards clearance (looks like late spring to early summer of 2009), perfect for the budget-minded videophile.

I felt that since all manufactures are using 1080p as a marketing tool that Pioneer would have to follow suit. From where I sit I cannot see a difference between 1080p and 720p. I know more than a few would disagree with that.

If the next generation Pioneers have an increase of 80 per cent in contrast, I cannot even imagine that.

Thanks very much for the information.

supposedly have ANSI contrast of 3k:1, which I guess is supposed to be unheard of. Three kinds of contrast make up the overall contrast you get to enjoy: On-Off, ANSI, Intra-scene.

As for the whole Sony LCD vs Pioneer plasma.... don't you guys think this has gone on long enough? LOL. Seriously.... its like... um.... JL Gotham sub or Velodyne DD-1812 Sub? Theyre both great, choose the one that's good for you?

Or like those old Pizza Hut ads... which one would you like sir, pepperoni or sausage?....

BOTH!

lol,
This will never end.
NS looks at the name of this posting (Sony LCD or Pioneer Plasma) as Plasma vs. LCD. Not one TV vs the other.
Myself, I look at more than just what technology the TV is. I go by performance. I think some Plasmas are better than some LCDs and vice versa. Its best to keep an open mind as far as technology goes. If everyone saw it that way then technology would not be where it is today. Trying new things and being flexible is why engineers have created such great technology.
The best thing to do is admit that 1080p is superior to 720p. Just becasue it is new and makes the older technology look bad does not mean that the old technology is still not good. Its just not as good as the new thechnology.

The Kuro's win in my opinion, but not the 5080.
The only ones worth being called a KURO are the PDP-5010FD, PDP-6010FD, PRO-110FD, and PRO-150FD.
If the Model number has an "HD" at the end then it is one of the low-end Kuro's.
I am not positive what the letters stand for but here is what I guess they stand for:
FD stands for "FULL DEFINITION"
HD stands for "HORRIBLE DEFINITON" or maybe "HALF DEFINITION"(but the 5080 is less than half the definition that the 1080p models are so that can't be right.)

I'm glad you have finally "seen the light" (or should I say dark, in the case of the Kuro)! The interesting thing is that from a vantage point of 8' or further away from the screen, the PDP-5080 possesses all the same characteristics of the PDP-5010 that make it superior to ANY LCD currently on the market.

Ergo: Plasma IS superior to LCD and 720p is equivalent to 1080p in a 50" screen when one sits greater than 8" away (as NS has always said)!!!

I was told that it was official that the 9G's will all be 1080p by a few VERY VERY reliable sources. If you go to:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=989591 you will see that this has been said by Roman from Invisions Displays (an AVS forum sponsor) and D-nice (Pioneer insider). These guys are not the types to start "rumors" as you put it. If you think so feel free to go challenge them.
Another guy I have talked to set up a 9G demo at CES 2008. He confirms this as well.
All 9th Generation Pioneer Plasma will be 1080p. The new Plasmas will again show a 80% increase in black levels as they did when going from 7th Gen to 8th Gen. Brightness will not change at all. Only Black level. Which is a shame. I would have liked to see a bit brighter of a display. I have seen some video of the 9th generation besdie an 8th Generation. And man-o-man, The blacks are beautiful! They make the 8th generations look greyish instead of black (which is VERY hard to do).
The 10th generation Kuros have recently been tested and can achieve TOTAL BLACK (ZERO IRE). Can't wait for those.
As far as the 5080 goes, I sill remain impressed with its black levels but am just as impressed with the Samsung 81F's Inky Blacks and local dimming. Local Dimming achieves a deeper black than the 5080 but doesn't do to well with shadow detail. The 81f "cheats" to do it though. Its locally dimms the LED backlighting in certain areas to achieve an awesome black level.
MY problem with the 5080 is not color accuracy (which the sony wins in that regard), black levels (which the Sony comes close), or brightness (which the sony destroys the 5080 in). My biggest issue with the 5080 is SDE (screen door effect). The 5080 is horrible when it comes to SDE. SDE CITY! I was at BB the other day and they had the 5010 next to the 5080 and the picture on the 5010 was much more detailed and no SDE at ALL! The 5080 was showing some large text on the screen that said "all televisions will be digital in 2009" or something like that, and the SDE on the letters looked horrible. Much much better on the 5010. If a pixel became stuck or dead on the 5080 it would be so visible that you could probably see it from normal viewing distance. Which would be a pain!
How better is 1080p than 720p? About 225% better. There are more than double the pixels on a 1080p set.
II will say agin, I do not dislike the Kuro's, only the 5080. I would rather own the 5010 than my XBR4.
In fact, I am about to order the 6010 in a week or so. I finally got to go see a fully calibrated one in action and my GOD! The 6010= Video Bliss!
I made it a point to examine it carefully for any "grainy picture" like NS warned me of. I could not see what he was talking about. It had the deepest blacks,clearest, sharpest, most detailed, picture I have ever seen on a flat panel before! So I am pretty much sold. My only hesitation is that the 9G's will be out in 6 months or so and maybe I should wait.

chadmak09:
I congartulate you in every way. 720p is inferior and I was clearly wrong in every way. I should never have thought I could challenge one as great as chadmak09. Clearly chadmak09 wins the conversation and we should all go home...NOT!

"Myself, I look at more than just what technology the TV is. I go by performance."

chadmak09, I would concur that this statement is what people should be looking for in a television. The TV doesn't have to be 1080p to have excellent performance and be the better bet. It can have more accurate colors, deeper blacks, less drag and quicker response. It's video processor can be more powerful bosting fewer errors. And all of this at a lower price? wow.

As for your statement of what "deserves" to be called KURO, allow me to strongly disagree. KURO, an adj. in Japanese, is achromatic to the color of absolute darkness. What Pioneer implies by attaching this name to their panels is that their black levels and thus contrast is superior to any other HDTV on the planet. They are correct in this statement (production-wise). The PDP-5080HD is a KURO panel in every sense of the word. KURO does not mean 1080p black levels, just really deep black levels.

Samsung LCDs do not qualify for KURO staus, as they still cannot produce the black levels and thus not the contrast of the current generation KUROs let alone gen9, which I'm sure will be impressive.

As for your SDE statement, The screen door effect happens to ANY pixel-based system, 1080p included. It's just a matter of how close one chooses to sit from the screen. I can sit 2ft away from my 5080 and PRO-110FD and see the SDE. At a comfortable viewing distance, not so much for either of the panels (6.5-12ft).

You must keep in mind the way the new HEET Best Buy's are set up is to make the customer view at a rather "up-close-and-personal" nature with the TV's, which would explain why one can see the pixel grid in the showroom and not in the home. But this doesn't seem to explain why you can't see the SDE on the 1080p Pioneers, especially the 6010FD, which, out of all the 1080p Pioneers shows it the worst. But maybe it's because one simply cannot see the SDE in the first place. On my main system, I have a rather nice front projector that has a high native resolution (approx. 4096p, 2.40:1). If I get up close (about 3ft from the 120" Stewart Filmscreen), I can see faint SDE. If I can see it at about four times the resolution of 1080p, then how is it, chadmak09, that you cannot see the SDE on a 1080p 60"? Then again, I suppose it would explain why you cannot differentiate the PRO-110FD from the PRO-150FD or the PDP-5010FD from the PDP-6010FD in terms of picrure quality.

Plamsas do not suffer from "stuck" pixels. They do not utilize the twisting x-tal mechanisms that LCD technology uses. A dead pixel on a 1080p screen is just as visable from 12ft as a dead pixel on a 720p screen (KDL-40S3000 v. KDL-40V3000).

In your "not dislike KURO's" statement, you failed to mention the PRO-950HD, the PRO-1150HD, and the PDP-4280HD, all from the current lineup of KURO that are all 720p.

Nobody ever complained about brightness before. I would complain if they made the sets any brighter, as ti would be difficult to watch in a dark room, where an advanced plasma screen belongs. If you like to be blinded when you turn on your XBR4, be my guest. But if you have ever seen an ISF-calibrated set, you would know that the brightness level goes way down for a dark environment.

This is all rather confusing to me: you can see tons of SDE on the 5080 but none on the 5010, yet do do not bash any of the other 720p models in the Pioneer KURO line, only the one I have. Interesting. You claim HD stands for "half definition", yet that is what all TV programming is limited to. You say Pioneer's 10th gen panels will be extreme contrast, yet Pioneer released that they would be combining their extreme contrast concept with their design concept (the 9mm thin 50"). Pioneer has yet to make their lineup of panels any thineer, which they are going to do with the coming gens of panels. You say 1080p is 225% better. In what respect, beause it's certainly not the number of pixels, look:

1366*768=1,049,088
1920*1080=2,073,600
2,073,600/1,049,088=1.9765739385066

1080p resolution is slightly less than two times better than 720p. There are not more than two times the pixels on a 1080p set.

And I do not see the title of this subject as "Plasma versus LCD", but it has seemes to have turned into it. I have had to deal with so much misinformation, I have yet to get to the heart of the matter. Then I hear the words of chadmak09, one who seems to like all Pioneers except for the 5080, a perfectly ignorant statement of one who clearly misses the point of this conversation, which was about the KDL-46XBR4 versus the PDP-5080HD. Admittedly, I too have strayed far from this topic, but chadmak09 persists when I have had enough, almost as if he's trying to get me going.

In the matter of the KDL-46XBR4 versus the PDP-5080HD, the 5080 wins on the grounds of color accuracy, black levels, motion-adaptive noise reduction, motion, SD and non-1080p HD performance, film-cadence conversion (like 3:2:2, etc.), noise reduction, shadow detail, color decoder input accuracy, geyscale tracking, and frame interpolation (Pioneer's "advanced" film mode scans and interpolates at 72hz with no processing artifacts, unlike Sony's motionflow system, which reveals motion artifacts at 120hz). Even though the native resolution of the sony is 1080p, the lack of shadow deatail meant it couldn't keep up with the 5080 in high-detail scenes. Overall, the 5080HD wins.

I would recommend to you, chadmak09, that you should wait until the extreme contrast model comes out and with the world's best video processor as well (because it seems you have 20.001 vision, that is until it comes to seeing SDE on a 1080p set). I'm sure the $100,00 will be worth it to you. Afterall, isn't your XBR4 "good enough" for your purposes?

There goes NS on another one of his rants. I laughed my butt off when I saw that he put the "Kuro an adj. in Japanese, is achromatic to the color of absolute darkness. Blah blah blah" statement in yet another one of your replys. At least try to reply with something original. I am surprised that you didn't mention george lucas and Abby road again. LOL.
And your little mention of George lucas using pioneer plasmas for color accuracy a while back never had any basis on the topic to begin with. At that time LCD was nowhere near what it is today with the XBR4.
And you may want to read Cnets review of the XBR4 because in the black levels and color category they mention that the Sonys color accuracy is almost perfect (Spot on greyscal to be exact) and then right beside the statement it says the color accuracy of the sony is better than the other three they have tested and then says "even the pioneer 5080". then it goes on to talk about how the 120hz SEVERLY outclasses the pioneers smooth mode.
And actually my math is pretty good. Most 720p televisions are 1024x768 not 1366x768. In the case of the 5080 it is 1366. But if you knew much about HD technology you would understand that a difference that small is unnoticable as far as pixels go.
There will always be people like you resistant to change and new technology. I am sure when the CD came out you claimed that the human ear cannot hear any difference between a cassette tape and a CD and then started making graphs to try to prove your point.

There is no question if 1080p is better than 720p (768p whatever you wanna call it).
You claimed that Pioneer would continue to release 720p panels. WRONG!

You said "I own plenty in Sony's private stock and product. They are going nowhere." WRONG! SONY just won the HD format war.

I hope no one did any investing from any of your comments. They will go broke!lol.
Maybe HD or technology in general is not your thing NS. Maybe you should move to other things. How about barber college? lol.

GOOD CALL!!!


Riverledge.

First and foremost, I have a saying, never listen to the hypocrite. In this case, it is chadmak09.

chadmak09:
You speak of my repeating important points of this conversation without questioning why I have repeated the point. Is it perhaps because it has not sunk in yet? You talk yet again of the Cnet review of the XBR4 LCD, how it's color accuracy outclasses "even the 5080", yet you thrash me for even thinking the same concept twice. Sound and Vision Magazine and my own testing confirm the greyscale tracking on the XBR4 is less accurate than that of the 5080HD (see my previous post, as I might offend you if I dare post it again).

You mentioned how Sony's Motionflow beat Pioneer's Smooth film mode, but you did not speak of the mode of which I was talking in my previous post, which was Poneer's new "advance" mode that they advertise all over their website. This is a 72hz frame interpolation mode, which smoothes out 24hz material. This is NOT to compensate for a poor response time, rather it is to enhance film-based content. I will say that plasmas, having no response time, will always be smoother than a twisting-crystal-based system, as plasmas require no twisting to create pictorial movement.

You mention differences in resolution. 1280*1024 versus 1366*768 in particular. Any difference in resolution will make a difference, it's just a matter of screen size and distance. a 32" screen at 12ft does not necessitate a resolution higher than 1280*1024, as it is unappreciable to the 20/20 human eye. At 3ft from that same screen however, the game changes. 1440p is required for absolute picture purity at that level. Yes, 1440p. Isn't that a resolution above 1080p? Yes. I want to make clear that I do not hate 1080p, I just feel it is unnecessary an many situations that involve small-to-medium screens at medium-to-long distances (50"@12' for example). Also, take a look at all 50" 720p plasmas and all 720p LCD's above 26": They are all 1366*768 (save some no-name brands).

You say I am resistant to technological change. That is false. I am resistant to unnecessary waste and resorces that could be used for a more dramatic difference, but not to change in general. I will be the first to admit that I did not transition to the CD until 1984 -three whole years after it came out- even though I could have had one in 1980, when the Sony prototype was launched. To this day, however, I maintain the fact that record sounds worlds better than Compact Disc in many respects. CD's lack the warmth and punch of my old albums. CD's have come a long way in terms of jitter elimination, time clock readjustments, anti-vibration construction - all the things that make up a good piece of equipment. If my record technology can sound better than a newer technology, don't you think an older television utilizing older technology could look better than a newer television utilizing a newer technology? I know, scary concept.

btw, I was never into tapes.

The official word from Pioneer (I would insert here Justin Kraft's statement, but I would be crucified by chadmak09) is that 1080 exclusive is a rumor so far. If chadmak09 had read my previous posts carfully, he would have noticed my remark that going 1080 exclusive would be better for the company (more profit), but not for the customer.

A little stock lession: sony has not gone anywhere fast. Look at 06th, February 2008. Sony hit an alltime low for the year. And Sony stock has not majorly changed in quite some time.

Furthermore, I am disappointed on your last comment. Instead of making a breakthrough point that would force me to retire this debate, you make a lame barber joke. Honestly, can't you do better? And since you brought up HD competance, that is where I say you'd be lacking, chadmak09. I don't need to requote all of the times I have disproven you, so why question the competance of someone who is more competant than yourself?

Hey NS,
Heres another article for you to read. Looks like Pioneer is seeing the true potential of LCD.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1004781

I would once again question the credibility of this article. I have yet to hear from JK about this, however, one can be rest assured that Pioneer has no intentions of leaving the plasma industry. Pioneer has always stated their views of LCD technology as inferior. It is rather interesting that someone would state this, though.

If Pioneer stops making plasmas (For the next decade or so, anyway), I will have to go in there myself and make the panels.