Sony LCD or Pioneer Plasma?

The Pioneer web site has some information on the buzzing sound. It is not a manufacturing defect. They give settings on their site that you should change to reduce the noise, not sure if it completely eliminates it but if one of the owners of those sets would address the issue, I would certainly like to know.

Hi:
You mentioned info on the Pioneer website re: the audible buzzing sound (even at 9 feet seating distance). I went to the website, but couldn't find anything. Called Pioneer- the CSR had no clue! Opened a case #, but offered no assistance.
Could you post a URL on this info?

Thanks

C

Here is the link:

http://www.pioneer.co.uk/eur/faq/986/5394/index.html

I guess it is from the Pioneer site in the UK. The AV forums had quite a few mentions of a directional buzzing sound, basically if you set directly in front of the set and the sound seems to be tied in with the white and color levels on the screen. Some say they hear it and it is annoying, others say they don't hear any sound.

Some said it deals with the technology of the way plasma handles the pixels firing and others think it is the power supply.

Some said they can hear it a few inches from the monitor and others from a distance. Some said they cannot hear it at all. I am not sure if it is something that goes with plasma sets in general or if a break in period would reduce it. I'm not even sure how annoying or of how much concern it would be. That's why I asked for advice from current owners on this forum and feedback regarding the issue.

The buzzing sound is natural for the Pioneer.

The settings are designed for the television to neither add nor take away from the signal, thus all settings should be zeroed-out for the preliminary 100 hrs. I am sorry to have made you put your television settings to that in the first place. Please make sure that all modifications are turned off and that all general picture settings (contrast, brightness, etc.) are turned to exactly half-way.
-N.

corppsych, are the settings the same for the 5080 and 5010? Did you post them somewhere and I missed them?

Are these the initial breakin period settings?

Does the buzzing sound tend to decrease or go away after the break in period or is it just something that comes along with the monitor? I meant to ask NS this as well.

I've noticed that there the prices for the 5080 are very close to the Sony XBR 46 inch with 120hz and the 5010 prices are just as close to the Sony XBR 52 with 120Hz. However, with the answers I have gotten the Kuro seems to have the better screen and same reflectivity, performs well in bright rooms, and has ever other spec a monitor can have over the LCD's. Admittedly, the two Sonys are bright, and show detail, but when I took a look at the Kuro, I could not imagine a more life like picture.

what your initial setting recommendations were trying to accomplish once I jacked some of the items all the way up. I currently have all the general picture settings at what appears to be halfway-- the only one that might be off is contrast, which registers at what appears the halfway point on the bar graph, but numerically seems different than the rest, being at "30." Is this correct?
The other settings, such as power mode 2, etc. are as you recommended, with one exception. The setting wherein the unit shuts itself off after 3 hrs. if no input has occurred scared me at first, as I didn't understand what was causing the set to suddenly shut off (I was doing some painting, etc. while the tv was on but didn't interact with it most of the day-- so I disabled that particular feature.
Aside from some "fuzzy" transient appearances during scenes with a significant movement (e.g., sports), the picture seems stellar.
Now, if the buzzing were only a bit less noticeable. I did read on the AVS forum that many G8 owners were having similar problems-- one remarked that the sound was significantly less noticeable when he sat slightly off-center from the unit-- I have found the same. Seems as though a "speaker effect" occurs directly in front of the screen, regardless of viewing distance-- but move 10 degrees or so off center and it drops off, though doesn't disappear. It also changes with scene changes, so I'm guessing it is related to some form of power requirement from the unit to produce the desired screen image.

You noted it is typical for the Pioneers, and I guess it is a trade-off proving nothing is perfect. Hope that Pioneer can create a remedy if enough "buzz" on the forums finds it's way back to them.

Your thoughts?

C

ns387241

Your expertise, together with your overwhelmingly convincing arguments resulted in my commitment to purchase the Pioneer 5080HD plasma and I have done so. Now I need some more advice from you, if you would be so kind.

1) I want to protect my new plasma TV from electrical gremlins, but cannot afford a $300-$500 power condition right away. Is it OK to use a Belkin 5000 joule surge protector initially and replace it with the power conditioner when I can affored it?

2) Since max resolution for the PDP5080HD is 768p, specifically which make/model HD disc player should I purchase? Any advantages/disadvantages of Blueray vs. HD?

3) Can I safely use your settings for the 200 break-in period or do I need to use the so-called break-in DVD that is recommended on AVSforums?

4) I live on the beach in Florida. My TV viewing room (living room) is such that a large sliding glass door will allow some significant breeze and, therefor, potential salt air/mist to pentrate. I cannot relocate the screen to avoid this. Should I set up a wind-break (e.g. sheet of plywood) to minimize the effects? If you have a better suggestion for this, please respond.

In conclusion, please let me say that after doing my own side-by-side comparison of the Pioneer PDP5080HD with the Sony XBR4 and XBR5 52" LCD models, I am in total agreement with everything you have said. Despite the ongoing attempts of another individual on this forum to champion the Sonys, there is, quite simply, no comparison whatsoever. In all the important and critical qualities the Pioneer 720p plasma is absolutely and incontrovertibly vastly superior to the best LCD's that Sony has to offer at this time.

Sorry Sony, you'll have to wait.......maybe in a few years you'll get your time.

With respect and thanks,

Frank

I have the PDP 5010 and the picture is absolutely beautiful! The only complaint I have is the sound of a buzzing that emanates from the screen, most noticeably from the center.
I have called Pioneer and they asked me to set up an appt. with one of the local authorized repair guys. I'll have them come out to take a look.
None of the Pioneers I viewed during comparison shopping made such a buzz, so I'm hoping this is something that can be remedied here at the house.

Enjoy your Pioneer-- great picture.

As for BR or HD DVD, you can view either of them on your set-- they'll both look beautiful. Your only limitation is that your set will downscale the 1080P signal from the Blueray or HD disc, but you'll likely not notice it unless you sit somewhat close or have a very critical eye.

C

I just received and set up (initial settings) per earlier posted recommendations. So far I can detect no buzzing sound whatsoever. Picture looks fantastic when tuned to HD cable source. Standard definition programming looks pretty darn good as well. I'll be looking forward to seeing what this display can do after burn-in. Am considering professional calibration if not too expensive.

At a distance of 9.5 feet, my decent, but 60-year old eyes cannot see any pixilation.....i.e. picture has good quality high def appearance.
When the source is up to it, I seem to get an almost 3D-like projection from the screen. This is one of the qualities of plasma that I really like and is lacking with LCD displays.

Really, I have my mind pretty much made up on either the 5080 or the new 1080p 5010. The problem I have with this is, after reading some of the AVS forums, a buzzing sound seems to be an issue. That's pretty difficult for me to live with especially for the cost of this TV. If anyone has any feedback on this, I would appreciate it.

I am so sorry that you bought into the "kuro" hype like I did to start with and listened to all of the copied and pasted comments of NS. Maybe you will be able to return it for the Sony like I did. After doing some reasearch I learned that half of his arguements were completly bologna. His little "quib" as he puts it about Casino Royal and Sony using Pioneer plasma was a big one. Do you know when Casino royal was filmed?? It was released in 2006 which mean it was filmed even earlier. And at that time LCD was nowhere near where it is today. Same thing with George lucas, he hasn't released a movie in a couple years so I wouldn't even listen to that old news either. The truth of the matter is that the only thing that the Pioneer has over the Sony is Blacks today. And even Cnet admits in thier Review of the XBR4 that the Blacks of the Sony are "mighty close" to the pioneer. Also, Cnet agrees the Color accuracy is better on the Sony on thier review of the XBR4 (Meaning that if Sony had the XBR4 when filming Casino royal they would have chucked the pioneer in the garbage, which is more than likely what they already did)
Also, The images are very Dim on the pioneer (which is why such deep blacks). You have to close the blinds just to get a decent picture. Pioneer only has a little bit better Blacks to offer. Thats it! The Sony beats it in every other category. And as far as motion and judder problems, you might want to read Cnets comment on the review of the XBR4. The said that the 120Hz of the XBR4 SEVERELY outclassed the pioneers smooth mode (thats Cnets words, not mine). The pioneer has DIM images, Burn in risk, its not even a real TRUE HDTV (inferior 720p, which make a noticable difference no matter how many 720p owners will tell you it doesn't), has a serious glare from its heavily reflective screen, and many other problems. You can't play games or surf the net on the pioneer without having to worry yourself to death about burn in (which Pioneer will not cover under warranty) The Pioneer has to downscale even a simple 1080i signal to fits its crappy native resolution. Its obvious that this TV just doesn't cut it for todays technology and todays multi-user customers. I had this TV for about a week and a half and returned it for the XBR4 and thank god I did! The brightness and vibrant image of the sony is just amazing. But I guess the Pioneer is better if you want to sit in a room and watch a totally black screen and say ahhhhhhh. But as soon as it starts displaying a image the sony beats it hands down! Period. (as if there was ever any question if a Sony is a better product than a pioneer anyway).
Bottmline:
You can paint a turd black and call it KURO, but its still a turd!

P.S. I am writing this on my XBR4 using the web-browser on my PS3. And This is yet another thing that you can't do on the Pioneer without worrying about burn-in (which even pioneer warns you about doing in the Manual).

The vast majority of reviews of the Sony XBR series always seem to indicate how much better they are than the previous generation and then almost invariably follow that up with something like, "almost as good as a Pioneer plasma".

Well, "almost" isn't quite good enough for a true videophile.

PS. Judging from the tone of your last diatribe, you might want to consider resuming your medication.

they're discussing 50" tvs. Between the SONY and PIONEER's discussed here with 720p and 1080p, you generally will still not see a different in the picture. Take into consideration also that most people don't have perfect vision. Save thousands and hit up the 720p and buy a good HD player. Also, remember that Blue Ray is useless if you do not have a 1080p TV because that is the format the Blue Ray Disc movies are in. My two cents...

Lots of people see a difference in 720p and 1080p in 50 inch TVs, I am not the only one. If both Televisions are of similar quality then 1080p will out do the 720p TV anyday. 720p is not to be considered true HD anyway. And there is a reason for that. Becasue 1080p is a higher definition. Can you actually tell me that the new Pioneer Kuro 1080p Televisons are not better than the 720p versions of the Kuro's and do not have a better detailed picture?? By comparison, "720p" Televisions must downconvert 1080i/p signals, throwing away a significant amount of picture information. The downconverted image still may look pretty good, but there's definitely less fine detail which is very important. Those who want to be able to see the picture as it was intended to be seen go 1080p.

Resolution has to do with a few things: size and distance. If the TV is 50" or smaller, one will have a v ery hard time differentiating 720p from 1080p. The other factor that comes into play, however, is how close one would sit from the screen. Do keep in mind that 50" is a sizeable television and most would sit at a minimum of 6-8ft from the screen (myself included).

At 50" one would have to sit less than 5.5ft from the screen to discern the total difference between 720p and 1080p. And do keep in mind that when one usually watches TV, it is not so discerningly that one would notice such things. Also, most casually view the set (for the most part), rather than continuously test it.

All fixed-pixel displays (LCD, Plasma, DLP) must up- or down-convert incoming signals to their native resolution. The reason why 720p images look better on a 720p set than 1080i images is because the video processor on the television is doing less processing. This eliminates a chance for distortion that is left wide-open with other signal resolutions. This being said, 1080p televisions have to do a great deal of processing on their own, making them unsuitable for things like 720p/480p/i compared to a 720p set.

Also keep in mind that 108p over the air and through cable isn't exactly close. A 1080p signal takes between 2 and 6 times the space as a 720p signal (pending deep color and 120hz). This would lead to providers having to rebuild their current systems in order to meet the bandwidth demand. This isn't going to happen tomorrow, let alone in the next few years.

I understand the benefits of 1080p. I do have a set that is 1080p. But this is not always the practical choice for the people, especially those who wish to eliminate unwanted processor artifacts and stay on a budget. BD looks great on either set, but perhaps it's just me.

-N.

All i m saying is...but both of then besides each other,and compare...the most important is the end result,and by doing this,you will see the deference between both of them ( i did it..it s my job to do so..and no i dont work for sony...)...Im not saying that pionner is no good...i m saying that at the end result,you'll find a better and more precise colors on the sony...
As for witch one last longer...a lcd screen is expected to last 15 years...a plasma 8 years...plasma takes twices more energy to run then an lcd...im not saying that...the industry says that ( look it up )...
Also dont confuse yourself with the motion flow ( 120 hrz)...Every manufacturers as is own version of it...sony's 120 hrz is by far the most effective because it s the only one who recrerates a virtual image instead of puting a black frame between images...If you were impress by samsungs 120 hrz...put a sony rigtn beside it...you'll be amaze with what you'll see with sony.

I wasn't trying to imply that you are a biased towards Sony. It just sounds to me that you are biased against plasmas in general. Which is fine, I just wanted to give the author of the thread a counterpoint to some misconceptions.

I don't know what you do, but I am sure that you do a good job, and you know what you're talking about. But I have looked it up, and there is definitely documented information that states that plasmas last 26yrs or 60,000hrs. Again, could that be a gross exaggeration, yes it could. No one has had a newer plasma display for anywhere near that long, so there is no way to know for sure. But if you believe what the estimates are for a LCD, which is also given by the manufacturer, why do you have a hard time believing what the manufacturer says about the life of a plasma display. If you search this site, Dave Katz has an article on this very subject.

Keep in mind I don't own a plasma and probably will not get one. I have a Sony SXRD and you would probably have to ID me by my dental records if my girlfriend saw me buy another TV after less than a year lol. But I think that plasma gets a bad rap all across the board. Although it is definitely true that they consume more juice, although twice as much sounds high to me.

You have piqued my curiosity with the Sony 120hz though. It is no secret that Sony's TVs are renown for their processing, so it wouldn't surprise me if that is the case. Although like I said before, I will give Samsung the benefit of the doubt until I know if the motion distortion was due to bad implementation or just being a victim of in store settings. Alas, though My local Circuit City and Best Buy have the XBR4 in the show room, it is not hooked up to a stand alone Blu-ray connected via HDMI like the Samsung, and is instead running on a split component feed of content unknown, so I can't really get a fair comparison. I will definitely try though as I am intrigued by this new tech. I have not been in a while so maybe they have the XBR5 on a set up more like the Samsung.

We definitely agree that the author of this post should compare them as best he can through direct and critical viewing. What each individual likes is the only right choice.

Allrigth my friend...i get your point,and i totally agree with you on the fact that the best way for him to decide is to have both sets besides each other and compare...the reason why i suggest sony is that i work as a salemen in a major electronics store in Montreal...i sell those sets...i see them everyday...we test them...we compare...and so far my conclusion is ...SONY all the way.
The problem with some stores and their salemans,is that sometimes it's more profitable to sell a certain set instead of another...( better commission,better marge profit..etc..)So they biaise information ,or settings to push a certain model,customers must be carefull...So my standing is only base on my personnel experience and by the fact that i have the chance to see both of those sets every single day..regarding of what any choice award may say...

The Pioneer Panels (KURO Panels) are one of the very best on the market when it comes to being out-of-the-box calibrated, very close to ISF and SMPTE HD spec for colour. Out of the box, the reds on the Sony are magenta (which is not so far off from the Samsung's pink, as it should be though as they are using the exact same panels). Whether on the factory vivd mode or the custom mode (the way I will compare PQ in a retailing outfit is with "standard" settings, where the television thinks it is neither adding nor taking away anything from the picture. This includes the "Advanced settings" modes of which have black enhancement adjustments, which, although do help quite a bit, do destroy the overall picture, maiking it blotchy and worsening the response time), the greens are also quite artificial, reulting in lackluster performance with landscaping or nature scenes. I was fortunate enough to run the Sony KDL40XBR4 and the KDLV3000, what I feel would be the two best values and performers in the Sony LCD lineup, through a rigorous Silicon Optix HQV test disc (on blu-ray and standard DVD). Both failed the initial jaggies test and motion adaptive noise reduction test. Furthermore, the XBR4 also failed the 3:2 detection test and the varied film cadence test (a very easy one to pass, btw. The V3000 had no problems with this test, very curious). After a full ISF calibration, greyscale tracking was within +/-350K of the 6500K temperature goal, average performance for an LCD, but compared to a plasma, not so much. My first XBR4, after 3 days of initial break-in period, had to be exchanged due to a swarm of dead pixels near the centre of the screen (maybe about 50 if I counted correctly). Personally, I own quite a few Pioneer plasmas, including the 5010FD and the 5070HD (the predecessor to the 5080HD). In the same environment with the same equipment, cables, power conditioners, etc. and a full ISF Calibration, the pioneer measured within +/-25K of the 6500K goal for greyscale tracking, excellent performance fo any television. I also measured out of the box tracking, which revealed a +/- 100K relation, which still beats the Sonys after calibration. As for your comment on margin: Pioneer televisions are hand assembled in the US, Sony televisions are mass manufactured in Mexico. Plus, last time I checked my price sheets, the price that I can get a Sony for versus MSRP is about twice that of a Pioneer panel. As for power comsumtion, the PDP-5080HD consumes 371Watts with approx 2.0A of pull. The Sony XBR4 (comparable MSRP) comsumes 280Watts with 2.5A of pull. This is certainly not twice the juice you were claiming before. Feel free to check manufacturer's web sites for that spec. Also, an 8ms response time on the Sony is average for an LCD and unimpressive for any other TV (honestly, I felt rather queezy after a few hours of testing the Sony's standard-def performance). The Pioneer wasn't exactly perfect with standard def either, it left some trace of the jaggies, but at least the details of the picture weren't compriamised with the noise reduction mode turned to high. As far as the 120hz goes, the Samsung 71 and 81 series offer this, and they do interpolate full frames, however it does tend to lead to a "fast-forward" look. The Sony XBR4 was about the same, with slightly less "fast-forward" attribute. On the Film resolution test, 1080i patterns apeared soft and the fine details of the images strobed on the XBR4, whereas the Pioneer kept it's composure. 1080p was, no doubt, shown at full resolution with no overscan on the XBR4, but the fine details still strobed. The 5080, with it's ability to accept 1080/24p, was somewhat soft on the 1080p samples, but at least no strobing was present.
I noticed one thing on both panels at the retail shop that I didn't experience in my test room. Glare. Both panels exibited a good amount of glare, the XBR4 with its semi-gloss finish and the PDP-5080HD with it's anti-reflective coating. In the showroom under standard settings, the sony showed a considerable amount of bleaching that the pioneer did not, and picture uniformity both in the showroom and at home on the sony were poor compared to the pioneer, but very good compared to a CRT Toshiba rear projo that I happened to have in the same room (at home). Then again, the pioneer made the Toshiba look pretty horrible also.
On a side note: everybody is biased one way or another: you, me CNET, CS, S&V, AVS, everybody. The only way to truly determine what a picture is, would be in exact conditions, with exact sources, and exact calibration. And even then it would be impossible to really know. But life goes on. Realistically, most consumers will choose a TV that looks and feels right to them, whether its on torch mode or fully ISF calibrated, that is up to them. What I am in to is the science of picture quality, nothing more in the realm of video. Anything that will get me closer to a life-like experience with the picture, I will get.
The Pioneer PDP-5080HD has by far the most realistic picture I have seen on a flat TV. I would whole-heartedly recommend it to those who would treat it correctly and those who could appreciate it. The Sony, although a failure in my mind, will still sell. The name lives on, and the type of picture that is excrutiatingly bright and un-colourful still attracts the eye, but for any of you out there who really would like to have a dead-accurate picture, that is bold, vibrant, and deep, go with the Pioneer Kuro panels. You won't be disappointed.
ps: KURO: Japenese: The achromatic colour of maximum darkness.

First i most correct on you one of the biggest misconception running around...Samsung and Sony dont have the same pannels...THEY ONLY SHARE THE SAME FACTORY...witch is split in two side..Sony on one ,with their own engineers...and Samsung on the other who also have their own engineers..Also every single pannel made by Samsung, for all of their models are 8 BITS PANNELS...As for Sony...every flat scream pannels for all models over 40 inch are 10 BITS PANNELS...( same for Pionneer by the way)...So even if a television set have a better time respond ,or a better contrast ratio,it will simply have no real effect on a 8 bits pannel because the gradation of a 8 bits pannel is 4 time less then a 10 bits pannels...for those who dont know what it means having a 10 bits pannels compare to a 8 bits pannel let me explain...a 10 bit pannel will give you a time better gradation of color...that means that a 10 bits will reconize 4 times more color...or gradation of color..you may have a better time respond on some other models than a Sony...But whats the good of having a better time respond if you image is deluted?
Also,all Sony models who are equiped with a motion flow offers the possibility to ajust it to standard or higher mode..so if you are watching something with a lot of mouvement ,you could set it to the higher mode to have a better result..again ,only Sony offers this.
Has for your point of view about how natural color are on the Pionner set versus all others and especially Sony...i can only say that i dont share this opinion at all...I see both of those models ( and others )every day..i work with it..ans ask me or any of my co worker,though Pionner is a very good set..it doesnt beat a Sony,sorry.

I need to correct your correction; If you'll just check the manufacturer's websites, Samsung does indeed have full 10bit processing and 10bit panels on various models (as does Sony). Also, Samsung.com will also list the 120hz interpolation under the LNT-4671 and LNT-4681. Plus, there is a Low, Medium, High and Demo mode. I also find it hard to believe that Samsung and Sony don't share their panels, beacuse their circuitry is almost identical (I went to the extent of vioding the warranty on an LNT4661 and KDL46W3000. I have personally tested the setting under real-term conditions and also at the local Best Buy. Also, panel bit doesn't necesserilly mean that the panel's picture will be diluted. Just as 1080p doesn't make the picture any better than 720p, just as my 480p DVD player will smoke any BD or HDDVD player on the current market, the bit on the panels and processing are not end-all be-all functions of a tele. Also, I believe you must note that on Sony's website and in their advertisements, they claim (on the XBR4 and XBR5, their highest) that their LCDs can only poduce 92% of the NTSC colour gamut, which will cause a great deal of colour-banding with ATSC sources (like BD and HDDVD), or anything that supports deep-color (xvycc).
As for your comment on my opinion, I have a question or two:
Have you ever thought of checking the settings on the teles you sell?
Have you ever compared the two teles side-by-side with exactly the same settings?
Have you allowed proper break-in for both teles?
Have either of the teles undergonew any type of ISF, SMPTE, or color calibration otherwise?
Have you taken all advanced settings off the TV?
Have you read S&V's review o the 5010?
Are you colour-blind (or for that matter, blind)?

I would only like to say that I have compared these televisions pretty thouroughly. Being SMPTE, ISF, THX, Silicon Optix and HTSA certified, I can tell you that I have tested myself for colour-blindedness. I simply believe you haven't touched a thing on either tele and are falling for the marketing ploys of manufacturers (their torch modes). Doing that would be equivilent to listening to a Bose lifestyle demo and being convinced that it was the best sounding thing you've ever heard. My advice would be to have a fixed source (like BD), fixed settings (standard for the Pioneer, zeroed out, pro settings off with color temp set to warm. Custom for the Sony, with settings set to 50-50 all the way through, color temp set to warm 2 with all advanced settings turned off), and fixed environment (Pitch darkness would be nice, but so long as lighting is even throughout the viewing area, with no spotlights shown at either tele, it should suufice).
Provided all this is done, you shall note the KURO black levels far surpass that of the Sony. Flesh tones on the Sony will appear washed out and dull, greens will be greyish on the Sony. The reds will be a dulled magenta, and fast motion sequences (even with 120hz, which, for this comparison, is considered an advanced setting and thus should be left off) will deteriorate quickly on the Sony. One should also realize color banding and processor artifacts with standard definition DVDs (non-upconverted via component video). The 480i performance via component video with the Sony also appears rather soft versus the crispness of the Pioneer.
Picture Quality, once again, is a science. All of my results are measureable, and thus are undenyable. Please test the product before you speak harshly upon others who do their homework beforehand.

Ok,maybe Samsung as 10 bits pannels...But they are completly ineffective,and here's the rason why.Sony,s motion flow recreates a true virtual image,between every real image,the flow recreates a image with real colors...this allows every Sony's set ( who as a motion flow) to get up to 48 bits of picture quality ( with a blu-ray).As for Samsung,the set can only maximize at 28 bits,because what they call a motion flow is different then the Sony one...instead of a real image being inserted ,it s a black frame thats being inserted...by doing this ,they simply cannot maximize their 10 bits pannels...I t's like having a car witch engine could run up to 200 milles per hour...but not being able to reach it because your set of tires is to small.
So maybe the same pannel...but not the same results.
As for did i compare them under the same settings...Are you kidding me???It's simply impossible to have both so different set under the same settings...But let me resume simply the comparaison....and in fact thats what im saying since the biginning of this thread...When i put both set besides each other,i prefer the sony ..i find that the coloration is better (better level of blacks)...( better 120 hrz)...and better resolution...Plug them both on a blu-ray player...the result is better with the sony...But at the end it's only a question of taste..and you can certainly disagree with my choice.

If you actually took the time to do what I had suggested, you would have noted that specifically on Samsung's manufacturer's website (www.samsug.com), Samsung clearly states:
"Faster Frames for a Clearer Picture
This technology doubles the frame rate from 60 to 120 frames per second (120Hz LCD panel) without repeating the same image to make more frames. Instead, the TV intelligently calculates the ?middle? image between frame A and frame B and inserts it in between (Auto Motion Plus 120Hz processor), making a fluid transition from one frame to the next"
Having cleared that out of the way...for the real problem: Picture quality is a science, there is no such thing as taste when it comes to being true to the signal, which happens to be the goal of these teles. Therefore there is a right and a wrong when it comes to this industry. Now, if you can assure me that both units that you have tested are brand new out of the box, without manufacturer defect (Pioneers shouldn't have any, but everyone makes a lemon), and the seetings are as I described on the last post (WITHOUT 120HZ, WITHOUT Black level enhancer, or for that matter any professional mods found in advanced settings), you will find the greyscale tracking on the XBR4 to be something like this:
"Color temperature (Warm2 color temperature before/after calibration):
20 IRE: N/A
30 IRE: 5,470/5,878 K
40 IRE: 5,840/6,531 K
50 IRE: 6,056/6,441 K
60 IRE: 6,275/6,520 K
70 IRE: 6,304/6,661 K
80 IRE: 6,263/6,547 K
90 IRE: 6,359/6,489 K
100 IRE: 5,789/6,298 K
Brightness (100-IRE window before/after calibration): 36.0/34.4 ftL"

As you can see with the data I have collected above, the XBR4 isn't exactly spot on with the greyscale tracking. The Pioneer looks more like this:
"Color temperature (User Mode/Low Color Temperature):
20 IRE: 6,109 K
30 IRE: 6,446 K
40 IRE: 6,418 K
50 IRE: 6,425K
60 IRE: 6,455 K
70 IRE: 6,463 K
80 IRE: 6,429 K
90 IRE: 6,445 K
100 IRE: 6,441K
Brightness (100-IRE window): 31 ftL"

The difference between the two simply for color accuracy is amazing. The XBR4 has a 200-degree difference, whilst the 5080HD has about an 81-degreee difference from 20-100IRE.
These greyscale tracking measurements shown above directly measure accuracy of color, and are used so for a full ISF calibration, so the comment you made on coloration is nil.

When it comes to black levels, I have to say this:

"Kuro, Adj. Black: Being of the achromatic color of maximum darkness: Origin: Japanese"

There is a reason why Pioneer chose this name for their panels. There is currently no such thing as deeper blacks than a Pioneer Kuro on a flat TV. And for that matter, there are only a handful of front projectors that can even begin to display that level of darkness on their screens (low gain or high).
And I am not at all recommending the Samsung panels, as they are tererible with standard def (as Sony panels are also) and do not compare to Loewe and B&O panels at all. Rather I am here on this form to discuss the pros and cons of each tele at hand: Sony LCD and Pioneer Plasma. Since Pioneer is certainly the best in plasma this side of Dreamvision (SRP:$42.995,00), we should be comparing the other panels like Sharp (creator of the LCDTV), Bang and Olufsen, and Loewe for a fair comparison. This is like a BMW 3 series versus a Maserati MC12 - is a comparison really even necessary? The Pioneer, with supporting scientifically measureable and verifiable data backing it, is -of course- the winner.

Hope you don't mind, but you seem to have a scientific approach, which I appreciate, and you mentioned having both the pdp 5010 and 5080 for comparisons.
I'm currently undecided between these two and would appreciate some feedback. I will have an approximate viewing distance of 9 feet (+/- .5 ft), and the literature I've read thus far suggests a 1080p would offer little if any advantage at that distance. I currently have only a std DVD player, but can imaging a hd or blueray in a few years once the dust has settled and prices have become more realistic.
I'd like to avoid being shortsighted re: the resolution issue and am willing to pay for the 1080p capabilities for the future if you think that is a good bet. I realize technology continually improves and want to own this set for a good 10 years.

Thanks in advance.

So, you said you would be approx 9ft +/- 5ft from the screen (which would be between 4ft and 13ft from the screen. Within 5.5ft from the screen, I noticed some differences between the 5010 and the 5080. The 5010 lacked some "busyness" that the 5080 showed during hi def and 1080p castings. Beyond 5.5ft, there is no difference between the two so far as my research and testing has suggested. If you're really going to be further than 5.5ft for most of the time, the 5080 is a fine TV. But, if you are a true videophile, who would only want the best, or simply someone who likes to sit less than 5.5' away from their set, then the 5010 is right for you. Price doesn't bother me, so I leave that up to you. -N.

N-
Thanks for the response. I think that for the most part, my seating will be anywhere from 8.5 to 14 feet, with the majority being around the 9 ft. zone.
Based on your comments, the value of the 1080p is mostly imperceptible at that focal length, which is helpful. I plan on viewing both at Best Buy tomorrow (found a store that says they have both up and running) to see if anything else moves me one way or the other, such as black levels or how each handles poorer signals-- sd from comcast, etc., for example.
Any thoughts on that are welcome-- I want the best bang for the buck, but am willing to spend extra when it buys better quality, etc.
Again, your input was and is appreciated.

C-

Okay, so I watched both sets side by side with the same blu-ray players running identical discs, standing about 9 feet from the sets. I have to admit that it was very challenging for me to detect material differences, though occasionally I was able to see the 1080p set displaying a slightly sharper or more detailed image, but only on a few scenes (discs were samplers from various movies).
So, here's my dilemma: am I being shortsighted if I don't buy the 1080p? Will,over the next few years satellite or cable providers manage to broadcast true 1080p signals and if so, does the 720p set handcuff me just a smidgen? My practical side says no, but I think if the price on the 5010 comes down after Thanksgiving (as as the price on the 5080), I would be inclined that way. I'd like to say the difference between them was obvious and well worth the $, but I'm struggling. That money would pay for several years of HD-DVR with a satellite or cable provider, right?
Your input is most welcome.
Your thoughts, ideas, etc. are welcome, everyone.

It won't be for another decade, decade-and-a-half before cable/sat/over-the-air even thinks about broadcasting in 1080p. This is due to a severe lack of bandwidth. Even after February 17th, 2009, 1080p signals can take up to 8x the space of a 1080i or 720p signal (1920x1080p, deep color, 120hz). There is no way (without a complte restructure of the wiring grid) that channels could do this. Furthermore, although it IS possible on the current analogue system, cable/sat/OTA providers would rather have more channles paying for that space than just one.

Realistically, 1080p from anything but BD, Video games, PC or HD-DVD's isnt coming for quite some time. And think of it this way, the 5080 can accept a 1080/24p signal and no matter how high the resolutions get, a 50" screen from 9 feet will still be the same deal - very hard to tell higher-than-720p resolutions.

My 5080 is between 6 and 11 feet from me (Bedroom TV). My 5010 is between 2 and 5 feet from me (this one's the color proofing monitor for my Runco SC-1). Perhaps my vision is going, but 5 feet is the max distance I can sit away from a 1080p set before beginning to lose significant detail.

Well, what you're saying fits with what I've heard elsewhere. It was a Direct TV person saying they're coming with 1080p broadcasting within a year to 18 mos. Unsubstantiated, though it may be, the person swears their advertising material say the same. Risky to put it in print, I'd think.
So, at 8-9 feet, perhaps a bit more, the 5080 will likely be the better bang for the buck. A part of me wants the best I am willing to afford (can do either set) of course, which is why the 5010 is being seriously considered. I also envision buying an HD or Bluray player within a year or so (once I sense a majority direction or even might just buy one that plays both), so 1080p will come into play for me. Knowing that, do you still favor or lean towards the 5080. By the way, when it receives a 1080p signal, does the 5080 downscale it to 1080i or keep at a progressive scan of 720? Do you know?

Just wondering your thoughts about the Elite counterparts to these two units? Better processors? Better pictures? (I've not had side by side opportunities). When I've viewed the Elites and then the 5080/10 series, I struggled to see a significant improvement. I have a non-Elite 64" rear proj set now and love it, and never have felt the need for the Elite.

I do appreciate your insights-- many thanks for the ongoing discussion.