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Something has bothered me

by TONI H / November 9, 2014 4:20 AM PST

for a long time regarding the PTSD issue....

We had millions die in battles during WW1, WW2, and the Korean Wars and never seemed to encounter anything, even to this day with those vets being as old as they are, like this syndrom. They all seemed to come back, for the most part, even with disabling wounds, ready to get on with their lives and did that. Yes, there were some who became drunks or abusive, but those seemed to be far and few between, and suicides were virtually unheard of.

But, since the VietNam war, it seems that our men and women in uniform are overwhelmingly coming back mental cripples, and I have to wonder.

How much of this has to do with politically correct bureaucrats and politicians and even more so private citizens going out of their way to make these brave individuals feel guilty over what they are asked to do for this country that they themselves wouldn't do in any way, shape, or form?

Guilt is a powerful weapon and I believe it has been used unmercifully against our military and I haven't got a clue about how to convince those who do it to just stop and be grateful instead. Yes...they have been given lip service regarding gratitude, but that's all it is and is done for political or 'social' reasons. The sincerity seems to be non-existent, in my opinion.

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Good post.
by Dafydd Forum moderator / November 9, 2014 4:37 AM PST

I lived in a prefab house in the 50s-60s. The man just above us was suffering "shellshock" from WW2. He would trash his house on a regular basis. This was a man after service, was left to his own devices. More needs to be done for our armed forces. These people have put YOU first regardless of their own safety.

On this day of remembrance, I salute them as an ex soldier.
Dafydd.

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That is what I was going to say.
by Diana Forum moderator / November 9, 2014 8:53 AM PST
In reply to: Good post.

After WWI and WWII, it was called shell shock. I remember in the movie Patton, they showed him slapping a soldier because he had it and told him to get over it.

I remember my aunt telling me that, after my uncle got home, he would have nightmares and jerk in his sleep for years. He was still in the military during that time and I'm sure he would have never reported the problem to the VA or his superiors.

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I don't believe
by TONI H / November 9, 2014 9:15 AM PST

that more came back from those old wars with shellshock or suicidal thoughts and actions in those early three wars.......do you know there are averaging 22 suicides of our military per DAY?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/supreme-court-reverses-decision-that-tossed-out-michigans-ban-on-racial-preferences/2014/04/22/44177ad6-9d8f-11e3-9ba6-800d1192d08b_story.html

I grew up during the Korean War and actually began reading newspapers on a regular basis at a very early age (around 8 or 9) because I found the news, local or worldwide, pretty interesting. Granted, I didn't understand/comprehend everything I read, but didn't think anything of going back to school with clippings in hand and question teachers about the meanings. Contrary to popular belief here, I really am pretty well read.....and I don't recall the media ever criticizing our military and its actions like they started doing during the VietNam War and it's escalated mightily since then, which is why I wonder about the 'guilt' aspect regarding our military's mental state.

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back then
by James Denison / November 9, 2014 9:51 AM PST
In reply to: I don't believe

no excuses give for failure, one was told to "suck it up" or "buck up and be a man" and that was enough. Now if someone isn't performing properly, some "doctor" comes up with a malady, often includes a drug, and then instead of blaming the doctor and the drug given they lay it off to the "malady".

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So, do you agree that people can get PTSD
by JP Bill / November 9, 2014 10:38 AM PST
In reply to: back then

or do you think they are malingerers?

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Nobody is disagreeing with the diagnosis
by TONI H / November 9, 2014 10:59 AM PST

I personally am just curious about the reasons behind it since we had so many more serving in three huge previous wars and far fewer 'shell shocked' come home compared to what's come from the 'newest' wars with far less serving.

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Anyone who takes human life
by James Denison / November 9, 2014 12:36 PM PST

whether in war, or even home defense, is liable to have some problems dealing with it. Anyone who sees a friend die or blown apart next to him is going to have some problems result from it. Some is from second guessing what one did or thought he might have done at the time which would had differing results, misguided feelings of guilt, and so forth. It's not just veterans who face these problems. It could be someone who was driving, had an accident, resulting in the death of those with them. Consider what Laura Bush may have gone through from similar situation. The person needs however to understand that what's done can't be undone. Accept or reject any feelings of guilt related to the event. Make a new beginning, leave it behind you, move on. My neighbor who has since passed was on the USS WASP when a *** bomb went down into the cafeteria area and blew up men he'd just had lunch with, and who'd served that lunch. He had to pick their body parts out of the area and help bag it up. His diary, which one daughter read for a report she was doing on WW2 in high school at the time showed his angst at what he'd experienced. However that was "there" and when he returned, that is where he left it, and went on with his life. There was nothing he could do to stop it, nothing to say goodbye to those men, only treat their remains with respect, and do the best by them then he was able.

I found a part about that incident here.
http://www.usswaspassociation.org/history/

Warren's the first name on this list.
http://usswaspassociation.org/search-rescue/

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RE: leave it behind you, move on.
by JP Bill / November 9, 2014 1:02 PM PST

Some can't even leave the results of an election behind them and move on.

Everyone doesn't have the same constitution.

I didn't bother to read your links....I wanted to know what you think, and now I know...you think they are weak...not as strong mentally as you claim to be.

You have no compassion for people that you consider weaker than you.

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then you misunderstood
by James Denison / November 9, 2014 1:25 PM PST

Toni believes it seems that today's society may contribute to a greater problem with PTSD than before. Maybe that's true, especially for Viet Nam Veterans, but I think less for today's veterans. I believe there are those truly damaged emotionally by what they've endured, but much of it can be related to the way one grew up before serving, their faith in God, their concepts of what is right versus what is wrong, understanding the differences between murder and justified killing, and so forth. Earlier times demanded more and expected more from both men and women, and one must consider that such demand also helped in a "tough love" manner to overcome it and recover, to put it behind you, and to press onward in life. You can live in the past and end up going nowhere afterwards, or you can leave it there and move on.

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It's pretty hard to misunderstand
by JP Bill / November 9, 2014 1:51 PM PST
In reply to: then you misunderstood
leave it there and move on.

Do you make your grandkids watch violence on tv/movies?

Why? Why not?

Take them to church, (to show them what's right) bring them home, sit down and watch Texas Chainsaw Massacre, (to show them what's wrong) then go out for ice cream. So they don't get traumatized IF they even have to kill someone.

IF they were Christian they could handle killing someone better? Taliban seem to be good at that. Do you ever wish some Christians were more like the Taliban?
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You aren't really interested
by James Denison / November 9, 2014 1:57 PM PST

in any serious discussion, just in making up ridiculous comments and accusations. This thread untracked.

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RE: This thread untracked.
by JP Bill / November 9, 2014 2:07 PM PST

NOW, it's untracked?

I've never used that tracking thingy.....I just sit and wait...jigging the line every few minutes,

If someone can't ever watch violence I don't see how they can perform a violent act and get over it and move on.

Sorry if my questions were to violent for you.

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Are you saying playing shoot 'em up video games
by JP Bill / November 9, 2014 3:08 PM PST
In reply to: then you misunderstood

and a Christian upbringing should give drone pilots the mental stamina to prevent PTSD?


Drone Pilots Suffer PTSD Just Like Those in Combat

Although drone operators may be far from the battlefield, they can still develop symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), a new study shows

About 1,000 United States Air Force drone operators took part in the study, and researchers found that 4.3 percent of them experienced moderate to severe PTSD. In comparison, between 10 and 18 percent of military personnel returning from deployment typically are diagnosed with PTSD, the researchers wrote.


All that is missing out of your equation is "religion"...if they had a certain religion they would have a clear conscience.

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2010
by James Denison / November 9, 2014 1:41 PM PST

Do you know how old they are? Most were born in the 20's, officers probably earlier just before the 20's. They are talking about people in their 80-90's and trying to make some association to events that happened 60 plus years ago! Notice dementia affects short term memory first and often people who have Alzheimer's can for awhile recall vividly things of the past but have little recognition of things in the past 5-10 years. It's like having their lives start running in reverse, like that movie The Curious Case of Benjamin Button, except the body isn't going backwards with the mind. Also many of them having seen death, lived through death, understood how quick death could arrive, and then lived a full life afterwards, have very little actual fear of death, so choosing when to die, for them is in a way, taking control of the process when they feel it's time to leave. While it's ruled a suicide, they probably don't look at it that way before leaving. It could be similar to those who have had Near Death Experiences and no longer have a fear of death. They don't want to die yet, but I suspect many of them when they feel no quality of life left in this world may decide to step into the next.

Is suicide a sin? Some seem to think so. Those who are left behind are often troubled by such a belief. I think it depends on the situation. Rejection of God's gift of life could be considered a sin. Not staying here to learn the lessons God wants us to, but checking out early is thwarting his will. Nowhere however is there any biblical indication that suicide is a sin. Giving one's life to save another is even considered a sacrifice that is blessed, so it's all circumstantial. God will make the determination if it was justified or not. Is refusing life support a suicide? What about a DNR? What about those who jumped on 9-11 from a burning building, choosing their method of death to be fairly quick instead of painful burning? Did they want to die or did they not have any choice between life or death, only the means of death? It depends on the circumstances and it's between them and God.

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RE: people in their 80-90's
by JP Bill / November 9, 2014 2:28 PM PST
In reply to: 2010
people in their 80-90's and trying to make some association to events


Some little incident will trigger a recollection about some event in combat," he said, "like a DVD playing back in my head.

Age has taken a toll on his short-term memory, but he still has a razor-like recollection of the past.


taking control of the process

Instead of counseling, Patrick Arbore, the founding director of the Center for Elderly Suicide Prevention and Grief Counseling, said most World War II veterans self-medicated with alcohol.
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You personally can associate
by TONI H / November 9, 2014 7:52 PM PST

80-90 year olds who commit suicide with what may or may not have happened during WW2 but absolutely can't seem to associate our youngest military's age bracket suicides to guilt caused by others?

I'm done with your nonsense....go jiggle your 'line' (and I associate your 'line' with another part of your anatomy at this point...you just gave me the opportunity to voice that association) somewhere else.

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RE:You personally can associate
by JP Bill / November 9, 2014 8:43 PM PST
You personally can associate 80-90 year olds who commit suicide with what may or may not have happened during WW2 but absolutely can't seem to associate our youngest military's age bracket suicides to guilt caused by others?

I just posted the story, I didn't do the survey, so I don't "personally associate" anything.


Guilt caused by others?

Because they followed orders and now they feel guilty for what they did?

That's the problem with having a conscience...some can make themselves feel guilty with no outside help.
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Evidently you still can't read well
by TONI H / November 9, 2014 10:08 PM PST

"Guilt caused by others?

Because they followed orders and now they feel guilty for what they did?"

No....as I've stated already numerous times....because the media and private citizens who wouldn't ever fight for their country have condemned them publicly, and it's been happening since VietNam.

I'm done...........

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I remember hearing about soldiers in battle.
by Diana Forum moderator / November 9, 2014 10:08 PM PST
In reply to: I don't believe
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It might be similar to madadies in children
by Steven Haninger / November 9, 2014 6:44 AM PST

I was in grade school in the '50s. There was no real mention of ADD, AHDD, hyperactivity, Autism or any other such named affliction that interfered with ones ability to learn as long as their IQ was in normal range. Today, it seems that a huge number of children have some sort of learning disability diagnosis.

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I think that is because it just wasn't recognized
by Diana Forum moderator / November 9, 2014 8:50 AM PST

as a problem. Kids with ADHD were just disciplined as problem children. My son and nephew were both diagnosed with ADHD.

I look back and I can see that it runs through my family. I see that my mother had it and my sister definitely had at least ADD. I can see I was borderline. I just called it a low boredom threshold.

As for autism, I just saw a billboard saying that 1 in 68 children had autism. That seems a lot ridiculous. I believe some schools are diagnosing this so they can get more money from the Federal government.

I did know some kids with dyslexia. I think I was borderline with that as well. I got confused with b and d and p and q and some other letter combinations but it cleared up when I learned cursive.

But I still think it's a question of money.

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Do you not think that kids grow faster and are bigger
by Steven Haninger / November 9, 2014 5:21 PM PST

these days? My impression is that they do. I don't remember 8th graders that were 6' tall but that's not so uncommon now. I do believe there are some suggestions that our food today isn't the same as it was. There are more chemicals that stimulate growth in both animals and vegetation. We don't have a lot of moms who prepare meals all day for their families. Our habits have changed significantly. Do you think there might be some possibility that our food and lifestyles affect growing children in ways beyond the physical? I wouldn't be surprised to find out that a lot of problems have been caused by what we think is progress and problem solving.

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Bigger
by Diana Forum moderator / November 9, 2014 10:18 PM PST

Most kids today are bigger than they were before because they are getting better nutrition. I remember talking about Japanese kids are bigger than their parents because of better nutrition.

Before food stamps poor nutrition was rampant among the poorer classes. Even on the farm kids were put to work at an early age and, while they ate better than the city kids, they were lifting heavier loads and working long hours on the farm which can stunt your growth.

Most kids dropped out of school at 8th grade (my grandmother did) if they went to school at all. Remember there were no child labor laws so they were put to work in the mills working 10-12 hour days six days a week. That was when Sunday School was started to teach children their lessons (not just biblical) since it was their only day off normally.

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While for some nutrition might be better
by Steven Haninger / November 9, 2014 11:48 PM PST
In reply to: Bigger

I'm not sure that's the case for all. I can't imagine that farm kids ever wanted for good food but that won't be true as cities developed with many neighborhoods being filled with poor folks. Just look at what kids grow up with today. Listen to the noise around you everywhere you go. You get raucous rock music in your TV commercials and even children's shows. These kids are surrounded by ear pounding noise that we older folks didn't experience until we inflicted it upon ourselves. They eat food full of hormones and who else knows what. They're not raised by parents but by sitters and pre-school teachers. I'm not convinced that their early lives don't create some of the problems they have when entering the real education system...and then, they're so accustomed to accidental learning. They learn while being entertained. Real school can't live on the Sesame Street curriculum.

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Isn't there such a large difference in how war is waged
by Steven Haninger / November 9, 2014 5:31 PM PST

today versus yesterday? We see WW1 soldiers with bayonets in the air and today's soldiers with LCD screens and buttons to push. I would think that the fear of imminent death changes one's state of mind in different ways. I would think that knowing one had killed and thinking one might have killed makes a big difference later. Thankfully, I've never been in such situations to know first hand how I'd handle them.

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And there was always the threat of disease
by Diana Forum moderator / November 9, 2014 10:20 PM PST

Don't know about WWII but more soldiers were killed by disease than by the enemy in WWI.

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That was true of the civil war...or so I've read
by Steven Haninger / November 9, 2014 11:40 PM PST

Bullets didn't kill as many as did the infections caused by them.

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It isn't all that simple
by Willy / November 10, 2014 1:37 AM PST

From all the wars and conflicts you've mentioned, you should understand that there are far more survivors and returnees than ever before from most recent to past. That in turn provides a far greater amount of veterans that can have issues whatever they need be. that also is also part and parcel what can lead to benefits being given out. Also, many benefits aren't necessarily taken upon immediate return or such because of the stigma attached to any so-called mental issues. PTSD the latest and as taken here has been greatly used by Viet Nam vets because it took that long or as being used as yet another benefit which, they are entitled provided they fit the parameters, yada, yada. That also had to won for ease of an benefit which it wasn't always had been. The most recent conflicts found returning vets that engaged in conflicts were coming back in most cases whole units depending on deployment yet they still had those that didn't fill-out the forms in order to return to normal, that as it may. This is a problem that only time provides the need or answer and once realized, care and treatment is then sought out. Forget politics because you will only are slapping the face of the veteran is a gantlet of papers and needs have to be given, I'm sure many turn away and will fester to return far greater in some form or fashion the required treatment if at all. Also, Viet Nam vets had the welcome mat pulled away unlike other conflicts and in general left a bad taste not only for the vet but the general populace as well. Now, you go figure... -----Willy Happy

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