 | Thank you for being a valued part of the CNET community. As of December 1, 2020, the forums are in read-only format. In early 2021, CNET Forums will no longer be available. We are grateful for the participation and advice you have provided to one another over the years. Thanks, CNET Support |
And what of Pastor Boyd, who authorized the security plan that included several church members who, like Ms. Assam, have CCWs? He must be even worse, no?
At your Church, you would have security personnel armed only with Tasers, right?
Mark
Discussion is locked
as per tos if your speaking in a non English language must provide translation.
oh well, i guess that makes reltive and Christmass 'foreign' words too....
.,
of the University of Chicago research, he is simply not interested in the objective facts. He's pursuing an agenda that doesn't really care about the facts.
the innocent bystander was shot by the robbers.
If the person that was killed was a member of my family I would sue the pants of the store.
Shot because some one was getting away with a hundred dollars.
I might even sue them anyway because the security guard fired first and started the shootout.
although they got nothing. The robbers hit the caged "courtesy booth" at a food store on the Saturday night a lot of the employees were to be paid, and they typically cashed their checks at the store.
Happy Holidays! -- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com
The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!
If I was working there, I would throw money at them.
What is the price of a life?
she claims she is a good christian. not a bad shot apparently. good thing she had the training to take him down. it does not say if he would have died from wounds inflicted by the security guard.
Matthew Murray, 24, was struck multiple times by a security officer at New Life Church Sunday but died after firing a single shot at himself, the El Paso County Coroner's Office concluded after an autopsy.
less woves would be enabled to feel that they cant be stopped
that he did that in order to not be taken alive. He had over a thousand rounds of ammo in his backpack. Bet he was planning to use as many as he could.
Jeanne Assam is still the hero of the day.
History shows that when guns are "outlawed" usually Christians are the ones who follow the law and don't have guns. I like Jesus approach which is even if he's counted among the transgressors, he told his disciples to be armed with a sidearm, which in that day was swords. They found two of them and he was pleased. They were NOT transgressors, and Jesus didn't TEMPT them to become so, at least not against God. They were COUNTED as transgressors by those of their day due to carrying arms without official government permission. It's the duty of Christians to be armed, for the sake of Christ, for the sake of justice, even when the law is against it.
I really can't picture Jesus and the disciples lugging around M16s. Show me the passages. With God on your side why would you need a gun? Especially, if you were his Son.
It's just a 2000 year transition to picture them having a sidearm today. Thank you Jesus for making that point clear. Amen.
(Ephesians 6:17) Also, accept ... the sword of the spirit, that is, God's word.
The whole analogy to a Roman soldier is 6:14-17.
Six items are mentioned; only the sword and [possibly] the shoes can be counted for offense.
He told Peter to put away his sword...
-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com
The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!
armed. He did say this;
Luke 22:36-39
And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one. 37 "For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, 'AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS'; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment." 38 They said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough." NASU
Jesus simply told His disciples that their methods would need to change in the future. They needed to prepare to take care of themselves, and to think about self defense. Notice how quickly He downplayed this when he said 2 swords in a group of 15 or more people are enough. He certainly didn't tell them to be prepared to take up arms against the government, or anything like that.
Note His warning against using weapons;
Matt 26:51-54
51 And behold, one of those who were with Jesus reached and drew out his sword, and struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his ear. 52 Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. 53 "Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54 "How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?" NASU
He quickly rejected the use of weapons to defend Himself, and He clearly carried no weapons.
IOW, Jesus made a quick comment about prudent preparation including self defense. He did not command His followers to arm themselves in defiance of the government.
Luk 22:21 But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me [is] with me on the table.
Luk 22:22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!
A sword has more uses then for killing it is also a tool.
Do you believe the mans' ear was reattached when it was cured?
Ooops! We cut off his ear.
You guys I can't leave you alone for a minute.
Give me that.
There is that better? Sorry.
A complete non sequitur. You're quoting (out of context) from a story dealing with the disciple's faithfulness/commitment to Jesus, betrayal by Judas and remanding into the hands of the authorities. It wasn't anything even close to biblical lessons on proper uses of force or armaments. Using the Bible this way is like viewing through a peep hole then describing it as a panorama.
Romans 12:17
17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[d]says the Lord. 20On the contrary:
"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."[e] 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
So whats up with this one....... "In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head".......... so you know you can't do vengences and yet your instructed to treat your enemys well knowing full well that it will mean them suffering, what part is right this or all the rest. This does not compute. Perhaps better said "damned if you do, damned if you don't".
John 3:8
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
I understand this one. Do you?
(Romans 12:17-21) Return evil for evil to no one. Provide fine things in the sight of all men. If possible, as far as it depends upon YOU, be peaceable with all men. Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: "Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah." But, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals upon his head." Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.
Notice that Paul is quoting; it's from
(Proverbs 25:21-22) If the one hating you is hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he is thirsty, give him water to drink. For coals are what you are raking together upon his head, and Jehovah himself will reward you.
Imagine if you and I are on the outs because my tree was shedding in your yard. Comes the ice storm, we lose power, I hook your house to my emergency generator. How would you feel? Burning with embarrassment, perhaps?
Just what is it you understand about John 3:8?
This mind is still untracked.
The passage is still a contradiction. The results could be literal, remember we're talking about enemies here.
Perhaps the greater question is has God made mistakes in his word? Can God make mistakes? The Bible has many "say one thing do another" examples. In fact that's all we've been talking about here. This entire conversation has been about Bible contradictions.
These verses in Romans are referring to people who despise, persecute, and otherwise hate you for your faith, or people who are just plain mean. Think about it like this: Say I have a friend who says some unkind things about me because I like PC's better than Macs. This passage is saying that I am not to come up with even more colorful phrases to describe him, but instead I am to forgive him. This is the kind of enemy these passages are referring to.
However, think about the shooter in this story. He was there with the intention of taking lives. Now, I fully belive that God can handle a single man with a gun. And I believe that He did. He made sure that this security guard was there on the day that the shooter came; He provided protection for His church.
Now, you may say, "God could have taken care of the shooter; She was taking matters into her own hands instead of trusting God." Ok, then, think about this example; I'm driving across a bridge, and the car in front of me veers into the water. I'm not just going to think, "Oh, that's fine. God will just pop them right back out of the water." I'm going to stop and call for help! That is not taking matters into my own hands, it is saying, "God had me here for a reason today, and that was to help these people!" That is one of the absolute coolest things about God, that, even though He is more than capable of doing everything himself, He chooses to work through us!
As to contradictions, I challenge you to find even <b>one</b> contradiction that isn't taken out of context or a downright lie.
Very Best,
JP the Drummer
My first reaction would be that there had been trouble there before or that they were expecting it. In a since this was not only violent but premeditated violent. I did not say premeditated murder. The church knew that trouble was brewing and this is how they dealt with it and poorly I might add.
The example I have given you stands on its own. It is the only context, it is complete, and it is contradictory. Nothing has been taken out of context.
Nowhere in these passages (or anywhere in the Bible) does Jesus forbid self-defense. He forbids offensive acts, but nowhere does He say that Christians can't protect themselves. These passages are not contradictive; you are simply taking their meanig and presenting them in a way to seem contradictory.
You talk about how violence is evil and we shouldn't commit violent acts. What do you think the shooter was doing? I would call what he did pretty darn violent.
"17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[d]says the Lord." Romans 12:17-21
You are using this verse to say Assam was wrong in shooting Murray. You need to get this straight: these verses are talking about a conflict between two people; a personal disagreement, an argument, and, yes, physical abuse. Notice the word <b>personal</b>. It is talking about how to treat someone who is persecuting you. There was nothing personal between the the guard and the shooter: the only thing the guard knew is that a man with a loaded gun was shooting a congregation of helpless people, and that she could stop him. She wasn't getting revenge for something he did against her, she was protecting people.
Hope this explains things a bit.
Best,
JP the Drummer
Chowhound
Comic Vine
GameFAQs
GameSpot
Giant Bomb
TechRepublic