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Oops. Intended as a reply to....
Mar 14, 2004 3:10AM PST
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Re: Oops. Intended as a reply to....
Mar 15, 2004 3:22AM PST

Hi, Clay.

Couldn't agree more about that $%^#& button! Also the links to return to the forum at the top of the "go back/post" page -- I know I've accidentally aborted many message postings by premature withdrawal from the posting process!

As for your question, the key word isn't "accusation," it's "unsubstantiated" accusation. Kerry's accusations contains a documented basis for the charge. The charges off the smear machine against Kerry are generally based on hearsay, innuendo, or (increasingly) doctored "evidence."

-- Dave K.
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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The difference, Clay....
Mar 14, 2004 10:09PM PST

...is that all your links are to examples of Kerry criticizing Bush on policy issues. Nobody is doctoring photos to make it look like Bush is sharing a podium with G. Gordon Liddy.

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Re:The difference, Clay....
Mar 14, 2004 11:38PM PST

So you're saying that this link of Kerry's own words accusing veterans of war crimes is doctored?

http://www.streamload.com/jmstein77/KerryAd3.wmv

Are you saying this quote has been doctored?

"Mr. Bush has again divided this country," said Mr. Kerry. "By appearing at the Daytona 500 he has condoned an economic activity in which the elite win, and everyone else loses."

Sounds like he's trying to smear Bush just because he attended a race. Is everyone else that attended that race guilty as well?

In Act 1 Scene 1 The Patriot Act was passed nearly unanimously by the Senate 98-1, and 357-66 in the House, Kerry Voted Yea. then at Iowa State University he says, ?We are a nation of laws and liberties, not of a knock in the night. So it is time to end the era of John Ashcroft. That starts with replacing the Patriot Act with a new law that protects our people and our liberties at the same time. I?ve been a District Attorney and I know that what law enforcement needs are real tools not restrictions on American?s basic rights.?

Was his vote on the Patriot Act doctored? This is not opinion, it is fact.

He is not merely expressing his opinion, he's clearly operating his own smear machine just as much as the republicans. All I'm advocating is that both sides call a spade a spade.

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Re:Re:The difference, Clay....
Mar 15, 2004 12:25AM PST

I can't view .wmv files here. Was the Kerry quote doctored? Very possibly, yes. I Googled and I couldn't find any other sources for that quote, and the site you linked has a pretty clear agenda.

My understanding is that Kerry supported the Patriot Act but has issues with some of the ways in which it is being used.

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LOL, I guess we were both guilty of not looking at that site more carefully!
Mar 15, 2004 4:57AM PST

I didn't notice until a 2nd look that it's a satire site. So technically that doesn't make the Kerry quote a smear on their part.

Your attempt to present it as legitimate, however, could be seen as one unless you were fooled as I was.

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Re: Patriot Act
Mar 15, 2004 3:01AM PST

Hi, Clay.

Kerry is not alone in having second thoughts on the Patriot Act. It was sold as being directed against terorism, but in fact is also being used extensively in non-terrorist arenas. This possibility was criticized when the Act was debated, and assurances were given that its broadened government powers would be limited to fighting trrorism. That breach of promise is why the Patriot Act 2, with even further extension of similar powers, was DOA in the Congress, and why there's been a very cool reception to the Bush Administration's idea of extending the Patriot Act well before it expires. BTW, it's not just Democrats who object to the PA -- so do most Libertarians and many moderate Republicans.

-- Dave K.
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Re: doctored quote?
Mar 15, 2004 3:26AM PST

Hi, Clay.

Indeed, it has. A quick Yahoo search found it two places. It started out the following way: "More great satire from Scott Ott at ScrappleFace." That site has a clearly satirical story including the quote (The "about for Scrappleface includes"ScrappleFace, the daily news satire site, features 3-to-5 new stories most days.") Then someone used a sound-alike or the marvels of modern technology to create a sound byte of "Kerry" giving the doctored text. Just for the record, what Kerry did say was ?We don't need a president who just says, 'Gentlemen start your engines.' We need a president who says, 'America, let's start our economy and put people back to work'."

-- Dave K.
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Stop trying to smear
Mar 15, 2004 4:37AM PST

facts all over a political discussion. There's no place for facts here.

Wink

Dan

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So Kerry is The Accuser? That's a term for Satan! [nt]
Mar 15, 2004 1:03AM PST

[nt]

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So is Morning Star, and Bringer of Light. ;-) -nt
Mar 15, 2004 2:47AM PST
Devil
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and that was just one day!
Mar 15, 2004 1:23AM PST
Devil
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Relax Clay...........
Mar 15, 2004 3:02AM PST

It's only a political campaign. A lot of useless rhetoric that means not much and will soon be forgotten.
It's expected so therefor not surprising.

A few years ago it was the GREAT CONSPIRACY, curently it's the SMEAR MACHINE, operated by a bunch of crooks and liars.

Try to sit back and laugh at it.

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Re:Relax Clay...........
Mar 15, 2004 3:06AM PST

I'm just pointing out that both sides are really conducting a smear campaign, now if both sides would just call a spade a spade. Somehow though, I don't think the one side is big enough to admit their smear campaign is a smear campaign...

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Re:Re:Relax Clay...........
Mar 15, 2004 3:26AM PST

Discussing differences in policy isn't a smear campaign. Pointing out that the other guy is engaging in smear tactics isn't a smear campaign either.

Doctoring photos, making up quotes, and putting the opposing candidate in bed with women he barely knows, on the other hand.....

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How about calling judges neanderthals or Presidents liars?
Mar 15, 2004 3:52AM PST

Bet you don't see a smear there either.

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(NT) Not if the judges ARE Neanderthals and the Presidents ARE liars. ;-)
Mar 15, 2004 3:56AM PST

.

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Riigghhtt! The smear must come from the left before it's not a smear.
Mar 15, 2004 4:07AM PST

Silly me! I should have realized that.

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Um.....not exactly
Mar 15, 2004 4:25AM PST

It's not a smear if it's true.

It IS a smear if it's made up, like the NASCAR "quote" or the Kerry/Fonda photo, or spun completely out of context to present the opposing candidate in the worst possible light, like the "war criminals" thing.

Here is a link to Kerry's 1971 statement before Congress.

The way I read it, he is relating the fact that over 150 veterans confessed to war crimes. Do you not think that war crimes should be investigated and prosecuted? If you knew of someone who was committing or had committed war crimes, wouldn't you consider it your responsibility to report it?

It didn't read to me like Kerry was suggesting that such things were a matter of course for our troops in Vietnam, which is the way it's being spun. THAT is an example of smear tactics.

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and calling judges neanderthals is not made up? The left has not PROVEN that President Bush
Mar 15, 2004 5:12AM PST

has lied about ANYTHING. So, calling him that is not a smear? BTW, Kerry and Fonda's close relationship in VVAW and a picture showing them sitting near each other at a VVAW event are NOT made up. I know one photo is a fake. The other is not.

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BTW, that 150 veteran testimony? A lot of it was made up.
Mar 15, 2004 5:15AM PST

Many of those testifying had not even served in the military. When the Pentagon tried to investigate those claims, not one credible charge emerged.

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Re:BTW, that 150 veteran testimony? A lot of it was made up.
Mar 15, 2004 5:44AM PST

I'll admit I only did a brief Google search, but the only links I could find that support that claim are on Conservative sites with a clear agenda. If you have any other links, I'd be happy to read what's there.

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You're not looking very hard, Josh...
Mar 16, 2004 1:04AM PST

Josh, you're not looking very hard. It has been proven in various books, most notably in "Stolen Valor" by BG Burkett, that much of the testimony at that Howard Johnson's in Detroit (Winter Soldier) was exaggerated, embellished, and in some cases boldly fabricated.
Josh, I remember when that Senate testimony started coming apart a piece at a time. All across the media, it crumbled, don't you remember that, I do.
Hey, Josh, see that recent Nixon hated Kerry stuff on TV? Notice the "debate" on the talk show that was shown? Did I see fruit salad (ribbons)? I thought he said that he threw them away in his latest "boomerang medals" explanation.

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I've done some more thinking about this....
Mar 15, 2004 10:07PM PST

....and I think I see where you're going. I think you're suggesting that Kerry isn't fit to be President on the grounds that he was (allegedly) taken in by false or misleading information because he may have wanted very badly to believe it was true.

I can understand that. That kind of thing can get embarrassing if, for example, he was given inaccurate information about another country's weapons and ordered an invasion of that country on the basis of that information. Man, I'd have egg on my face too!

Wink

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not if your source was several national intelligence agencies who,
Mar 15, 2004 11:25PM PST

presumably, have no axe to grind. I'm talking of course about BOTH US and British Intelligence, and maybe more agencies that we don't know about.

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I just reread the quote and Kerry never called Bush a liar
Mar 15, 2004 5:27AM PST
Kerry said "we were not told the truth and the president did not keep his word" about Iraq.

"He did not keep his word in the type and extent of coalition he would build. It is a fraudulent coalition ... mostly American troops on the ground bearing the brunt. Everybody knows it."


Kerry does not say who he believes didn't tell the truth. His criticism is mostly about how Bush has handled the aftermath of the invasion.

The photo of Kerry and Fonda sitting "near" each other shows very clearly that Kerry is several rows behind her and that neither of them is paying any attention to the other. Their "close relationship" has been denied emphatically by both of them.