Should the forums be 'pirate friendly?'

It's been my policy to not offer help to pirates. If it's one of the forums I'm listed on, I may go as far to lock or delete the discussion.

I've received some feedback privately that such was not friendly. Which leads me to ask you and others if we really want to go down this road.

-> Today, the MODs exhibit (for the most part) a zero-tolerance stance to this issue. Most know what happens when you allow a pirate to get support in a forum.

Bob

.....if the rules aren't being followed. Explanations and locks aren't necessary if these people don't care to read the rules. If it applies to everyone there can be no complaint.

These posts should be deleted on sight! I agree with you.

I support you deleting them based on your judgement and to protect CNET. You well know that you can't please everyone.

I like these forums.

?Shiver me timbers, mate!?
Bob, you are right-on!
I called in to Adobe concerning piracy. I receive a thank you. That's it! Nothing more. I sent an email to John Warnock, Chairman and founder of Adobe. Guess what I am still waiting for? A response??None, yet after two months. Your forum by the way (Graphics.) Check it out with mouseroma and myself. Not much interest on the graphics forum for any response. Not even one, except for John! Seems no one cares, or most are Pirates!
Why do I even bother to inform Adobe?

-Kevin Smith

so much more interesting than plain old "B&W"


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WOW!!!, John, really good post.
Kevin

to the head of the Applications Forum by all mods occasionally......assigned or visiting.....as a reminder to members about this issue.

http://reviews.cnet.com/5208-6138-0.html?forumID=31&threadID=112757&messageID=1280816

It's easier to lock a posted thread than flat out delete it right away because otherwise the member doesn't know why the post isn't there, assumes it is a glitch in the forum software, and then reposts it. Once a thread is locked, the post I created gets bumped to the top again right away so the members can then understand why it's been locked but will also know why it will also disappear fairly quickly.

TONI

openly stating that no support for pirated software/music/etc. would be given, the message might be more clear. I could have missed some but, so far, I only see you and R. Profitt generating much noise about this. Such might give the impression that you are the heavy handed ones so you would take all the flack. Maybe a message ''signed'' by a larger # of moderators, posted in the forums where offenses are most common and bumped as you do yours would let folks know there's more than two ''grinches'' among them.

Most of the forums don't have ''anti-piracy'' threads, and since few people even read the forum policies/terms of service before creating an account, they don't know what the policies are, or the consequences, until after their posts are locked or deleted.
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As far as who gets the most ''fan mail'' is concerned, I think it is in relation to how much time each moderator spend in the forums, and more specifically, which forums he/she visits. For instance, I doubt Marianna Schmudlach or David Evans receive many complaints, as they don't supervise the forums that receive a lot of posts concerning illegal activities. Same goes for moderators like Dave Vlas and Jeff Ng, who are rarely on.

However, Bob, Toni, Grif, Mark, and a few others each moderate multiple forums, including those which are most trafficked. Then, if you count how often they're on and reply/lock/delete (Bob, for instance, has over 42,000 posts and never appears to sleep ), it's understandable why they are so ''loved'' by spammers, pirates, and other joyous folks. Hopefully this doesn't discourage our most valuable assets from helping out their fellow ''neighbors'' in this online community.
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Finally, there's the issue of how many moderators we have in the Digital Music and Multimedia forums. Jeff Ng is the sole moderator of the Multimedia forum, but I rarely see him submit or lock posts, and there is no one listed as a moderator of the Digital Music forum, which has more requests for piracy (and understandably so) than most of the other forums combined. Luckily, Bob and Mark fill in admirably, but it would be nice to have a ''resident moderator'' for a forum that receives so much unwanted attention. Plus, a notice about piracy from a moderator that's frequently bumped to the top might help lower the number of requests from people having trouble with downloading the latest songs from Limewire.

Just my two cents,
John

Nice Post. As Usual!!!

say that I do not envy any of the moderators here who have to make decisions about what is and is not fitting for forum discussion. As for myself, I don't even like some of the names people use as "handles" or some of the abbreviations or words substitutions that are commonly used as vulgar expressions. Just my ageing ungracefully, I guess. But, as you said, I agree with giving benefit of the doubt and keeping a bit of a vague line to walk on. One of the common questions in the help forums has to do with lost software CDs or key codes. Surely this happens but who here is to know if the folks seeking help with these issues ever legally acquired a license to install or use this software? I think the moderators have done well when approching this tough one. It's got to be done without automatically making false accusations even when the poster's intensions are quite suspicious. These forums are just too helpful to decent folks and I'd hate to see them corrupted by abusers. Thank you.

i know you people are between the rock and the hard place on some posts, but i think that you should also remember that these "pirates" are also computer users, and the fact that a p2p program was the cause of a trashed HD shouldn't automatically mean that the user is "beyond the pale" and therefore not worthy of Cnet forum help....

i agree that telling someone how to "find the password for the server at work cos i lost mine" is an obviously blatant request for help in a hacking attempt, or, "i borrowed my friends XP CD, how do i get it to work?" is 'cheating M'soft....

but helping someone to backup/recover his 15,369 mp3s and 2,181G of brand new DVDs is not, IMO, "aiding and abetting" as long as the user asks his question in a way that allows the the Mods to 'to turn a blind eye' to the fact that such a HUGE amount could only be the result of countless hours of P2P and weeks of ripping CDs....


jonah "has been known to taste of the forbidden fruit" jones


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That's the funniest thing I've read in these forums.

in order to help somebody recover files, no matter what the source of the original files was. I don't give them sources of where to get them from or where to get crack codes for pirated software. If somebody comes and asks how to get a legitimately purchased program that was at one time legally purchased in stores and on the net re-activated, while it is now an illegal program, I also give them as much help as possible rather than telling him to toss the program into the trash and that he's wasted his money months ago.

The fine line is in the wording of the poster asking for the help, and realizing that many of those movies may well have been legitimately purchased and he made, at that time, legal copies to his harddrive from vcr movies to burn to cd at his leisure. I've done this myself......as it is much less storage for cd's than it is for a couple of thousand vcr tapes....and tapes don't have a long shelf life like a cd does.

The source of the files doesn't matter when somebody is only asking for help to recover them. The source of the PROGRAMS/SOFTWARE in my opinion is the fine line that needs to be drawn.

There are some programs that were written years ago and were freely distributed over the net at various sources, including ZDNET and CNET....but newer versions are now being charged for. Does that make it illegal for the original version to still be distributed at various sites when you know that the original still does the job you need it to do and is still readily available from various sources via a google search? Sometimes, the original free program, the author's website, and sources to get it are no longer around with any type of search. Does that make it illegal for me, personally, to share that old but still functional program if I managed to save it in the original format over the years? I have quite a few old W95 type programs that still work fine with XP, but the program was never updated, the author is nowhere to be found, and a search for the program on google turns up nothing. Should a perfectly good program be tossed away when there is nothing else even comparable to it available today?

Moderators and volunteer posters who come to our forums go out of their way and bend over backwards to help people in trouble or in need, and always have. We just have to figure out from asking questions regarding some topics where our fine line is without automatically assuming the worst right off the bat, and when we have all the information we need, then we can make the decision about whether we are able to help. Sometimes it's blatantly clear and the decision is easy to make...sometimes it's vague enough that we have to step back a notch and realize that we aren't the internet police with the right to interrogate under bright lights...sometimes it really sucks being a Moderator because whether we morally agree with a decision or not, we have to follow the CNET rules because they pertain to us just as equally as the other members.

TONI

got here a bit late but was certainly glad to find this post of yours because I have a problem.

See, I have this boat (given me by a friend) and I have it pretty much filled up with furs and jewelry and appliances, drugs and money that I have accumulated by trading with peers in back alleys and "borrowing" from friends and aquaintances.

The boat was sunk in a recent storm and I just need help recovering it.

Can we count on your assistance and therefore involvement?



I'm firmly with Bob on this because an ACCOMPLICE doesn't have to have full knowledge, reasonable belief that something isn't right is enough.

and i also mourn your loss of means of transport...

it is with great regret that that we (my lawyer brother and myself ) must turn down your plea for assistance as a previous request left us with a nasty virus (some trips lead to murky, shark infested waters) and an impending law suit...

i have no hesitation in endorsing a friend who runs a P2P (Props 2 Punts} site who will aid you in your efforts to reach a safe haven with your "merchandise"....




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Jonah, Nice post!


-Kevin

This is one of those cases that falls in the grey area, where the existence of piracy is probable, but not definitive, and legitimate questions are also asked. Thus, a tough judgment call must be made.

I base all of my decisions on probability and statistics, which has worked out quite well. With around ninety percent of all files on P2P networking being pirated, my natural assumption when I see "P2P" is that I'm speaking with someone who is dealing in copyrighted material. This is one case where "innocent until proven guilty" isn't the first thought that comes to mind. I hate to say it, but I think the worst of P2P users unless that can convince me that there are using such services for only legitimate purposes. And, unfortunately, my assumptions are almost always justified. In fact, Bob is the only person I know of that uses a P2P service for legal purposes (download Linux ISOs).

In this case, I have little doubt that the songs from P2P networks and friends is copyrighted music, and thus pirated. While he/she hasn't admitted to piracy, few people do. Most of the threads I've seen locked/deleted did not come out and say "my pirated music" or even something like "the new Kenny Rogers CD," which we would know could only be pirated if obtained through P2P networks. Pirates leave their requests vague on purpose, hoping that their post may not be flagged and thus "fall through the cracks." Since "evidence" of piracy is rarely given, the only option is to base your judgments on the level of suspicion and the odds against the individual.
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In order to help shine some light on this "grey area," I believe that there should be a notation in the forum policies which explains that most people are naturally suspicious of those who use P2P networks, and why this is so. Then, ask those dealing with such networks to reasonably explain what files they are dealing with...in essence, explaining why we should not immediately consider him/her a pirate and lock/delete the thread. I'm sure that those few who are using P2P networks for legal purposes would be more than happy to oblige and avoid having undue suspicion cast upon them.

It would also make it much easy for the moderators to determine what is "safe" to lock/delete, and which should be left along, for the time being. If the post does not specifically state/explain the solely legal purpose for the network's use, then the moderators would simply be following forum policies by deleting it...there would be no question about his/her decision to leave, lock, or delete the post, as a judgment call would not be needed.
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Had the user not requested help for indexing music that we know is legally obtained, my decision to cite forum policies or lock/delete the thread would probably have depended on my mood and "gut instinct." However, since only some of his/her music is in question, I would try to walk that fine line between helping the user and helping the user commit piracy. First, I'd provide a step-by-step on how to properly import CDs into iTunes and make sure that the track information is included. Next, I'd state how to record the songs onto the computer with the least amount of quality loss, but explain that it would be nearly impossible to get any program to automatically recognize that identify the songs, as all of the identifying characteristics would not be present. (Included tags not present, song length would be variable, etc). However, when coming to the part concerning music acquired from P2P networks and friends, I'd cite the forum policies about piracy and offer the person the opportunity to "prove his case" and give us reason to believe that it is not copyrighted music prior to giving any help with indexing such.

At the same time, I understand where others are coming from, and that it is each person's individual experiences that influence their decisions. No matter what his/her decision is, I trust in the person to use their knowledge to make a decision which is fair to all parties. That goes for all of our moderators, current and future.

John