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General discussion

Science news, similar to our Antikythera discussion.

Jun 25, 2007 7:10AM PDT
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6722953.stm

"Calendar question over star disc
Archaeologists have revived the debate over whether a spectacular Bronze Age disc from Germany is one of the earliest known calendars.
The Nebra disc is emblazoned with symbols of the Sun, Moon and stars and said by some to be 3,600 years old ..."

The article is one of the Beeb's excellent ones that covers the many sides of a complex story.

Discussion is locked

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Interesting
Jun 27, 2007 7:41PM PDT

Gee, they are finding heaps of artifacts these days now.

It seems interesting that each archaologist has their own individual explanation.

It could of even been used for a mere decoration.

Or as Peter Schauer says: If you urinate on a piece of bronze and then hide it in the ground for a few weeks you can produce the same patina as on the disc.


(sighs) Though the picture seems like a happy face to me...

Thanks alot for sharing this information.


-Aidan


>>>>>>>>>>>>>Cheers<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

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Urinating on bronze ... hmmm ...
Jun 28, 2007 7:37AM PDT

If you read about an ancient bronze with an http:\ site engraved on it, then we never had this conversation.

Anyway, you're right about the interpretations. One of the reasons I like reading about these things is to try to judge which side has the best reasoning, even if it doesn't give us the "truth". Reminder: The Vinland Map controversy has been renewed. Legit or not? I'm not sure what the latest answer is.

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I see
Jul 1, 2007 2:14PM PDT

I see earth, moon, stars, a rainbow, night on the left side and day on the right side. There are 30 visible stars and one seems hidden in the daylight side. Those could equate to days in a month with one month alternating with the added day hidden in the sun. That would give you six months of 30 days and 6 months of 31 days for a year's time of 366 days. It could also signify that using a 366 day calendar would require loss of a month every 30 years to adjust it back to where it needed to be. The ring of 6 around the one could signify a week with one day held special. The holes around the edge are obviously how it was attached, there are 39 or 40 of them. The night and day side each have 9 holes which may mean nothing. All that may be completely wrong too.

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i would rather rely on Wink Martindale
Jul 1, 2007 3:51PM PDT
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It can't be wrong,
Jul 1, 2007 4:48PM PDT

we read it on SE. Happy

Not bad, actually. There were more than one way of accounting for the passage of calendar time. The simplest was used by farmers to calculate planting times; not rocket science, no need for instruments. It's obvious the bronze makers had a more complex reason for making their device.

I think the conjectures are fun to make. Some, of course, wink at our discussions- we rightly despise such. (What's the emoticon for a haughty look?)

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A "Eureka" moment?
Jul 1, 2007 7:43PM PDT

Just woke up in middle of the night and had an answer, maybe not the right one but a possibility.

It's a "flying disk".

The items on the left and right side are folded in wings. It was found on a hill, probably the taller in the neighborhood, so also likely a place where religious ceremonies or worship took place. It's a representation of God or a god. "God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

On the disk or shield you see the things that would represent the power of God, the Sun the Moon and the stars also. The Rainbow could represent his promise or could be symbol of his glory. Egyptians had an image of a disc or shield with spread wings to describe a god. Alexander the Great reported once seeing "flying shields" moving across the sky. Many warriors in various nations had decorated shields specific to them or their family/clan. It could be a brazen shield that held a place of honor in some structure on the top of a hill. Even the temple in Jerusalem in David's day had decorative shields in it.

There is the vision of Ezekial too in chapter one. In it you have "wheels" which can mean disc or shield, obviously something round and a mention of the rainbow glory with it.

Here's an interesting mention about "wings of the morning", so maybe there are also "wings of the night".

Psalms 139:9 - If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

Interesting Sumerian image with what could be a sun and planets.
http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/geocentrism/sumerian_artifact.jpg

Ezekial chapter 1 - The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel. 17 When they went, they went upon their four sides: and they turned not when they went. 18 As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four. 19 And when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up. 20 Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither was their spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels. 21 When those went, these went; and when those stood, these stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels. 22 And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above. 23 And under the firmament were their wings straight, the one toward the other: every one had two, which covered on this side, and every one had two, which covered on that side, their bodies. 24 And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood, they let down their wings. 25 And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings. 26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it. 27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about. 28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD.

Also from Ezekial chapter 10
And when I looked, behold the four wheels by the cherubims, one wheel by one cherub, and another wheel by another cherub: and the appearance of the wheels was as the colour of a beryl stone. 10 And as for their appearances, they four had one likeness, as if a wheel had been in the midst of a wheel. 11 When they went, they went upon their four sides; they turned not as they went, but to the place whither the head looked they followed it; they turned not as they went. 12 And their whole body, and their backs, and their hands, and their wings, and the wheels, were full of eyes round about, even the wheels that they four had. 13 As for the wheels, it was cried unto them in my hearing, O wheel.

Daniel 7:9 - I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

2 Samuel 22:3 - The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.

2 Samuel 22:36 - Thou hast also given me the shield of thy salvation: and thy gentleness hath made me great.

Psalms 59:11 - Slay them not, lest my people forget: scatter them by thy power; and bring them down, O Lord our shield.

Psalms 84:11 - For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

Ruth 2:12 - The LORD recompense thy work, and a full reward be given thee of the LORD God of Israel, under whose wings thou art come to trust.

2 Samuel 22:11 - And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind.

1 Kings 6:24 - And five cubits was the one wing of the cherub, and five cubits the other wing of the cherub: from the uttermost part of the one wing unto the uttermost part of the other were ten cubits.

Psalms 18:10 - And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.

Psalms 36:7 - How excellent is thy lovingkindness, O God! therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings.

Psalms 57:1 - Be merciful unto me, O God, be merciful unto me: for my soul trusteth in thee: yea, in the shadow of thy wings will I make my refuge, until these calamities be overpast.

Psalms 61:4 - I will abide in thy tabernacle for ever: I will trust in the covert of thy wings.

http://www.bibleorigins.net/CherubimOrigins.html

The Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus, writing during the 1st century A.D.stated that in his day no one knew what a Cherub looked like. This is a remarkable statement on his part, he claimed to be of a priestly lineage, well-educated in Jewish Torah and traditions, and if anybody would have known what a Cherub would look like, it ought to have been Josephus !
Josephus on the cherubim:
"He also dedicated for the most secret place, whose breadth was twenty cubits, and length the same, two cherubims of solid gold...but nobody can tell, or even conjecture, what was the shape of these cherubims."

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Many reasons why it's likely to be an object of worship,
Jul 2, 2007 5:37AM PDT

but not by Moses' people:
Deu 4:19 and lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun and the moon and the stars, even all the host of heaven, thou be drawn away and worship them, and serve them, which Jehovah thy God hath allotted unto all the peoples under the whole heaven. (ASV; the rest of the chapter eliminates any other representation or item of "relative worship", some of which are popular down to this day.)

What a cherub looks like? A man with wings, no doubt, like the other angels seen by men in the bible. Perhaps Josephus meant the exact form, since he never saw the originals. The tabernacle cherubs were destroyed by the Babylonians, if not earlier.

BTW a good lesson in there for those who put too much stock in the KJV. Cherub is a transliteration of the Hebrew, the -im suffix is masc. pl., so cherubims is bad grammar, like saying 'There are nine mens on a baseball team'. In those anti-Semitic days the editors of the KJV hadn't the courage to go into the ghetto to ask a rabbi for help!

Good conjectures; as many have noticed before us, religions worldwide have many common elements.

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found in Germany
Jul 2, 2007 10:41PM PDT

Not saying "Moses people" had anything to do with the disc or shield that was found. Was using the OT to show how there could be a similar religious significance. Moses people did at times worship the heavens, and idols, and Molech, and Baal and truly only God knows to what extent now, but that just further backs up the concept of the disc possibly being associated with some religion in Germany at the time. That it was found upon a "high place" also gives some credence to that idea. Even "Moses people" when they strayed from worship of Yah would go upon every high place and commit their religious adultery there, according to the OT. The varying unauthorized religion they engaged in were like the nations around them. Mankind in general has a long history worshipping the heavenly bodies. I'm putting out one idea of what the disc could represent. The moon image is the only object we can be fairly certain of it's representation. What they other dots are, whether they denote stars, or time periods such as days, months, years, we can be less certain off. Most likely the round object is the sun, but it could also represent the earth. The areas on the side could once have both had the same color, or maybe they were actually different colors to represent day and night, however that might be pushing it since there is already what might be a sun object on the shield, therefore more likely they could represent wings folded in. Look at each side and they are identical even to the odd detail that on each one end makes a curve to complete and the other a right turn. This would indicate the part of a wing that attaches to whoever is flying on one end and the wingtip on the other.

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You're right- I thought you were tying it to the Torah.
Jul 5, 2007 3:52AM PDT

Otherwise I think you're on solid ground. And the "similarities" are not accidental, per one sometimes-respected source Happy : John 8:44

And no one looking for literal heavenly symbols can be far off. I recall reading of a stone tablet with a representation of Leo with some other bodies that pointed to a date that archaeologists had already conjectured from other evidence. The tablet gave them the exact date, practically down to the hour. Since it involved kingly succession, it in turn let them expand their knowledge of other events, including Roman history in Asia. (Or is it Orient ... or Ginza ... oh, never mind!)

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It could've been part of a
Jul 3, 2007 11:23PM PDT

tiddlywinks game. Happy

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You're slipping.
Jul 5, 2007 3:57AM PDT

With that prominent moon, it's clearly tied to menses, therefore- it's a goddess!

Tiddlywinks?! You gonna be playing with some real hot counters one day, Dragon!