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General discussion

SAFETY NOTICE: How to put out a laptop/battery fire...

Aug 15, 2006 11:48PM PDT

Based on my experience as a volunteer firefighter, I'd like to share some info that doesn't cost and arm or a leg...but may save both in the case your laptop/battery explodes:

Firstly, DON'T USE WATER. duh.

It's best to use a dry chemical extinguisher (type "C") on an electrical fire.

However, use a dry powder type "D" extinguisher for the dense chemical battery (NiMH, Lith-Ion, plain old alkaline, etc.). The type "D" extinguishers are designed for chemical and combustible metal fires (e.g. magnesium fires with some automobile engines). You should be able to use the "D" type extinguisher to put out electrical fires as well.

It may seem like an odd idea, but dumping sand on a chemical fire also will work to an extent. This is just a simple smothering technique. Kudos if you actually have sand nearby...

Below are a few informative websites on battery fire safety and fire extinguishers:

http://www.fireextinguisher.com/

http://www.fire-extinguisher101.com/

Energizer Lith-Ion battery material data sheet: http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2006/PhiladelphiaPA/Exhibits/350561.pdf

Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution study:
http://ehs.whoi.edu/ehs/occsafety/LithiumBatterySafetyGuideSG10.pdf


*****Other related information*****

Lithium Ion battery in cars: http://www.digg.com/tech_news/Lithium_Ion

Technology Review - Lithium Ion cars: http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?id=17250&ch=biztech

NTSB study: http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2006/PhiladelphiaPA/Exhibits/350561.pdf

Discussion is locked

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type C vs. D fire extinguishers on electrical fires.........
Aug 16, 2006 8:28AM PDT

I was looking more into this - there isn't much specific info on putting out powerful battery fires.

The type C extinguishers are probably fine for electrical fires involving exploded/flaming batteries. The big thing they do is prevent you from being electrically shocked from an energized source.

The type D is very good for chemical and ''exotic'' metal fires because certain chemical/water extinguishers will make the fire worse because the hot metal will react with the chemical/water.

I have heard that a type C carbon dioxide fire extinguisher will also work - it suffocates the fire by blowing away the oxygen with carbon dioxide (which the fire cannot use).

For all extinguishers, you should be fine with being 4-6 feet away from the fire itself. Being too close could be too focused, too far would limit the extinguishment ability.

As soon as I get specific info on fire extinguisher tests done on laptop/battery fires, I'll let you know.

Best,
Shalin

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Use a Fire Blanket?
Aug 24, 2006 8:19PM PDT

Would a fire blanket help?
ie. The type designed to deal with chip-pan fires.

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Fire blanket - absorbtion of chemical unknown...
Aug 24, 2006 11:59PM PDT

I also think the fire blanket would work okay - I don't know if the absorbsion rate of the chemical into the blanket would be safe though... I'd wear non-rubber/latex gloves if I had to do that, probably leather gloves or big oven mits. and then I'd go nuts and pat out the flame.

BE AWARE - don't get too close to it, you could have a stray flame or chemical strike your face or eyes.

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Re-active metals in batteries
Aug 25, 2006 4:21PM PDT

Some of these batteries contain very active metals, once lit they can burn in pure CO2.. (see the linked video)
http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/demos/main_pages/5.16.html

Now if they start to overheat when charging and contained some moisture it will undergo electrolisis to become hydrogen and oxygen gas. Any spark or heat and BOOM...,

Nasty fire, and explosion...

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(NT) (NT) hmmm...Interesting! I think I'll look into that...
Aug 26, 2006 2:26AM PDT
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Just use CAUTION...
Aug 24, 2006 9:02PM PDT

I'm not sure how often anyone here has put out a fire with a dry chemical type fire extinguisher but you might be in for a nasty surprise. The very same way that the dry chemical blocks the oxygen from getting to the fire, it blocks the oxygen from getting to your lungs.

If you are indoors, be very careful. One or two tiny short blasts directly on the laptop or battery, if you have the laptop upside-down, is all you need. That chemical is going to get everywhere and it is terrible to clean up. The chemical will make you choke and gasp for breath.

If you have the laptop near your sofa or couch like many people at home, the odds of getting that chemical in your upholstery is very good and you may never get it out.

If it were my laptop, my first move would be to grab it, using tongs if necessary, and wing it out the door into the middle of the yard. Out there, you can play with your fire extinguisher if you like or just watch it burn. I read about one guy who lived in an apartment and just put his laptop in the sink and filled it with water. True, you shouldn't spray water on an electrical or chemical fire but if the laptop is unplugged and you are able to carry it to the sink, chances are the laptop is going to be ruined anyway.

My point here is to be careful. A laptop fire wouldn't be any fun but may be more containable than the mess you could create with one of those type-C fire extinguishers. Be careful with them and if you get an opportunity, check out the remains of a fire where one of those type extinguishers was used.

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Putting out the fire...
Aug 24, 2006 10:49PM PDT

Yes, a fire blanket should at least keep the fire away from the rest of your paperless workspaces..., now I've tried to strap an extinguisher onto the back of the laptop but the round canister keeps the key board rocking...
It has been having trouble going through airports, I thought it was more secure with then without...
Moved the extinguisher to my leg, but some women were obviously having visual input problems...
Just hope you've backed up your data...off site.

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great tip - dry chem works, but it's nasty - try CO2 instead
Aug 24, 2006 11:56PM PDT

Thanks DerfX - that's a great point. Dry chemical is nasty stuff and is best used outdoors.

A couple well aimed shots within ~4-6 feet range
should do it. And make sure no one is in the "line of fire" when you hit the extinguisher trigger.

DerfX - are you a first responder or safety expert? Anyhow, I'm really glad you chimed in on this.

If it were me, I would choose a Carbon Dioxide (CO2) cannister and suffocate the flame. Like DerfX suggested, I'd probably toss the thing outside on my yard or concrete driveway - less things to catch on fire.

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CO2 can cause damage to electronics
Aug 25, 2006 8:05AM PDT

CO2 extinguishers will do the job but remember that because the CO2 stream is very cold, you may damage circuit components. If this isn't a concern, CO2 is probably the best choice for a laptop fire.

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I don't think you're much worried at this point...
Aug 26, 2006 1:02AM PDT

The laptop is already toast. You are mostly worried about preventing the spread of fire elsewhere and unless it's sitting on your desktop computer and hasn't burned through... ;^)

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Just a mechanic, with some first-hand experience
Aug 25, 2006 9:29AM PDT

I just fix cars for a living but have had some experience with cars that have caught fire and then were brought to me for repair.

Unlike halon which will disapate rather quickly if you leave some windows open, that dry chemical will stay there for days or weeks. I had a cable company's van that had an inverter in the back that caught fire and burned the entire wiring harness all the way up to the front. It started burning while the guy was driving it and I'm sure he was pretty freaked out but he emptied an entire dry chemical extinguisher into it. A week later, when I had to fix it, I couldn't breath inside that van. I ended up washing the inside of the van out with a garden hose before I could get in it. Of course, I tried not to soak down too many cable boxes Wink

If you're not around when your laptop burns, you're not going to do much anyway. If you're present, it should give you enough warning to get the thing unplugged and outside. Don't drop it on the sofa or any place that is combustable. Just move quickly and carefully and if all you can do is use one of those dry chemical jobs, plan on getting yourself outside real quick afterwards.

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wow...that must have been some lesson learned...
Aug 25, 2006 10:51AM PDT

yeah, most people should be able to get some metal tongs as you mentioned, or heavy leather/nomex gloves and just toss the thing outside away from other combustables.

I'm soo glad other people already know stuff about fire extinguishers - less "business" for fire depts. but that's okay by me.

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And never discharge Freon around a running engine...
Aug 26, 2006 2:14AM PDT

Phosgene gas is an acrid byproduct of the combustion that can damage your eyes, burn your skin and produce irrecoverable lung damage. You only need to smell it once to understand that it's dangerous.

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(NT) (NT) True that! I've deftintley heard about that hazard...
Aug 26, 2006 2:25AM PDT
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Freon is one thing...
Aug 29, 2006 11:15AM PDT

Try cleaning a carborator or throttle body with "Brake-Cleaner" while the engine is running. Oh my God, I believe the properties of what comes out of the tail pipe is somewhere along the lines of the mustard gas they used in WW2.

You can definitely clear out a shop real quick. It is a good way to get everyone to take a break outside for a good 30 minutes or so.

It really sucks when it's the new guy just across the shop from you and he doesn't realize what he is doing until everybody is choking and running.

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Halocarbons all disasterous around extremely hot fires...
Aug 29, 2006 1:30PM PDT

Have had plenty of experience with R12; Electrical Contact cleaner and BrakeCleen are both R11. What you are producing when chlorofluorocarbons get inhaled by an engine and exposed to high temperatures is Phosgene gas, one of the horrible things used by the Germans in WWI to disable and kill the enemy and if the wind blew the wrong way, their own troops. It will burn your corneas, blister your skin and melt lung tissue if encountered in sufficient concentration. Thankfully, it's so noxious that most people will voluntarily leave an area before it gets to that level.

It can cause cardiovascular effects (pulmonary edema) that will kill you hours later.

http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/phosgene/basics/facts.asp

Once even saw a demonstration showing that Freon 12 is not as safe as it has been let on to be in automotive refridgerant systems. At the extreme pressures and temperatures in an engine compartment on a really hot summer day, a burst high pressure line produces an extremely flammable oil mist that then burns to produce one of the most noxious fires you can have to fight.

I mention all of this because Halon 1211 and 1301 are halocarbons both commonly used in some electronic fire applications. It has been mentioned that they be used on these lithium battery fires, a big no-no if you are working with primary Lithium cells (non-rechargeable) that catch fire. In these batteries, you have enough Lithium Metal burning to produce the high temperatures necessary to decompose the halon compounds into Chorine and Fluorine byproducts that can harm you. These fires are best fought with Class D, dry powder crusting type extingushants.

Some of the NTSB stuff that I've read seems to say that in LiPoly and Li-Ion batteries, you are mostly dealing with more of a class B or C fire, (Not enough free Lithium metal) that will be extinguishable by halon.

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I still say...
Sep 1, 2006 9:13AM PDT

...just throw the damn thing out into the yard and watch it burn. Sony or Dell will likely give you a new one anyway.

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Shawnee F.D. puts out ''Trick Flame'' Vaio laptop...
Aug 25, 2006 12:02AM PDT
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Battery fires, etc.
Aug 25, 2006 1:22AM PDT

Hi!
As an owner of a new MacBook who observed hers heat up in the area of the battery with alarm just last night (I shut down but then could not restart; wouldn't cool so I unplugged overnight; just restarted but won't stay on long!), couldn't get through to AppleCare, and heard on NPR this AM that new Apples were having same trouble as Dell's last week . . . well, I am very grateful for your expert posting to CNET!!!

Just in case, I checked the type of extinguishers my apt. mgmt. supplies and one is an ABC and the other a BC. The ABC was last serviced in April 2005 and the BC is more recent though bears no tag(!). So my questions to you are:
--Should I dash out and buy a D extinguisher to be safe?
--If there is a fire, should I reach for the ABC that was last serviced over a year ago?
--Or should I try the BC with no tag?

Anxiously, Rebecca

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if the BC is full, it should be okay...read on...
Aug 25, 2006 4:00AM PDT

Hi Rebecca,

If the BC is full (there should be a recharge/full dial near the neck of the extinguisher), it should be okay. Same goes for the ABC.

The servicing is not much more than making sure it's full and then making sure it works - give it a quick squirt somewhere in the open to test it.

If the canisters need a recharge or don't eject anything, TELL YOUR MANAGEMENT IMMEDIATELY. That's bad for your own safety and the safety of the apartment complex and could cost the complex owner a lot.

If you REALLY want to make sure you're okay, go to a hardware store and get a Carbon Dioxide (CO2) ABC canister - probably anywhere from $15-30. The Kidde brand is usually just fine.

I don't think the ''D'' will be necessary - a CO2 ABC canister should be fine. If after talking with the personnel at the hardware store you think you

Bottom line - you oughta be able to live your life comfortably. I just have a couple ABC extinguishers in my apartment (1 in the bedroom, 1 by the kitchen) and another ABC extinguisher in my car (although, I 'll need to get a ''D'' type for my car I think...there are special metal fires that react violently with water and some chemical extinguishers and the ''D'' types are designed to be ''unreactive'').

Best,
Shalin

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(NT) (NT) does that help?
Aug 25, 2006 6:16AM PDT
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Dry chem extinguisher not the best for electrical fires
Aug 25, 2006 7:59AM PDT

While dry chemical extinguishers are OK for electrical fires, the chemicals used will form a hard crust on hot metal. This may create a problem if you plan on recovering & using the electrical device. If you have ever used a dry chem on a kitchen stove fire or on an auto engine fire, you know what I mean. This crust may be conductive & is certainly hard to remove, so the fire will be out but the laptop may also be out. If a Halon extinguisher is available, use it, as it leaves no residue to be cleaned up; unfortunately, Halon is a gas that has been linked to ecological problems, so availability is uncertain. Halon is also not breathable, so after discharging one of these extinguishers, get out into fresh air & ventilate the area well before re-entering.

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I suggest not using a halon extinguisher indoors...
Aug 25, 2006 9:01AM PDT

A halon extinguisher will work quite well, but not on you if you're indoors.

Personally, I would rather put out the fire, loose the laptop and just recover the hard drive instead of using a halon extinguisher.

I know, I know - the laptop may feel like an old friend to you... If you've got combustable material around - just put the fire out ASAP. When fire gets in contact with general trash/walls/furniture it can typically double it's size every ~8 seconds! Fire is going to move very, very fast. If you don't put it out fast - you may end up loosing your house along with your laptop.

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That's Interesting!
Aug 25, 2006 9:56AM PDT

I used to work in enclosed computer rooms which had Halon fire systems.

"Management" assured us that the gas "was perfectly safe."

Management claimed that it would make a loud frightening noise but would not affect our breathing or health!

(Management didn't work in the rooms!)

Luckily, we had only one fire during my time: A network hub caught fire but the cooling air currents blew the smoke away from the detectors and the halon gas was not triggered. (The unit burnt out!)

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Yep, management didn't work in the room...
Aug 26, 2006 1:46AM PDT

You and fires live by breathing oxygen, CO2 and halon work by displacing oxygen. In small enclosed areas, CO2 and halon extinguishers can snuff you as well as the fire. The high temperature fire from burning lithium and magnesium can also generate phosgene gas from the chlorine content.

http://www.h3r.com/products/faq.htm

http://www.h3r.com/halon/ac2042c.htm

Per the FAA, halon and Class D fires:

(4) Class D. Fires which involve combustible metals, such as magnesium, titanium, zirconium, sodium, lithium, and potassium, and require extinguishing agents of the dry powder types. The recommendations of the manufacturer for use of those extinguishers should be followed because of the possible chemical reaction between the burning metal and the extinguishing agent.

(2) Tests indicate that human exposure to high levels of Halon vapors may result in dizziness, impaired coordination, and reduced mental sharpness.... Halogenated agents will also decompose into more toxic products when subjected to flame or hot surfaces at approximately 900

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... and Dense Fog!
Aug 26, 2006 2:04AM PDT

Even that scary stuff does not mention that the release of Halon gas by fire systems often causes dense fog; making it even harder to find the exit!

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(NT) (NT) geez...that's no good...
Aug 26, 2006 2:29AM PDT
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AWESOME resource!
Aug 26, 2006 2:31AM PDT

Wow, I've been scouring the web to find that info - awesome find and thanks for the posting!

Looks like a type "D" would be best...even though the laptop maybe a loss anyhow...

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halon extinguisher
Aug 27, 2006 1:49PM PDT

You are right not to use a halon extinguisher indoors. When halon is heated it produces a toxic gas that can kill you. If you do use one indoors be sure yuo are not breathing fumes from the fire.

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water is the best way to deal with a lithium ion fire
Dec 11, 2010 5:02PM PST

i hate to disagree with a firefighter and others , but as a trained airline crew member, we have been directed to use only a halon 1211 extinguisher from 4-6 ft away(not too close as that can cause flames to scatter) followed by dousing of water/cool non-alcoholic liquids ,when fighting a laptop w/lithium ION type battery fire. after testing, the faa found that the extinguisher alone will only temporarily put out the fire. water, which may sound counterintuitive, cools the lithium ion(not to be confused with plain lithium batteries) and prevents thermal runaway. thermal runaway will cause the laptop or other lithium ion battery device, such as cell phone battery, to re-ignite. if you google how to fight a laptop fire , click on the faa result and it will explain further. it does not mention unplugging as generally on planes, devices are running on the battery alone. i would suppose, if at home, unplugging first if possible is a good idea.. as for the covering with fire blanket or sand ideas, i am not sure if that is wise..they found that covering the device(even with ICE) only trapped the heat, the lithium ion batteries continued to overheat , causing runaway thermal reaction and devices reignited. also mentioned in the before mentioned faa video, if halon 1211 not available, just continue to douse with water, cooling battery ,as long as possible ,until help available/ able to get to safety. hope this is helpful.