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Rumsefeld kept 9/11 plane piece as souvenir

by Dave Konkel [Moderator] / March 12, 2004 8:49 AM PST
Rumsfeld Kept 9-11 Souvenir.
>> The Justice Department investigation that criticized FBI agents for taking souvenirs from the World Trade Center site also found that Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and a high-ranking FBI official kept items from the Sept. 11 attack scenes.<<
You might also want to refresh your memories on this message: FBI discipline system, 'deeply flawed'

-- Dave K.
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!
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Re:Rumsefeld kept 9/11 plane piece as souvenir
by SteveGargini / March 12, 2004 9:21 AM PST
"Everybody has things that they probably should not have from the World Trade Center site," said Sally Regenhard, whose firefighter son died in the towers. "I'm sure there's probably all kinds of people that have all kinds of artifacts."

Sounds very much like someone wants to blow this up into a large issue, but Rumsfield's part of a plane was probably quite worthless, unlike the items taken by the FBI guys, which were worth a bob or two.

Two separate things in my book, but seen as the same by people who want to take a pop at Rumsfield.
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Rummy certainly doesn't need my help......
by Del McMullen / March 12, 2004 9:41 AM PST

....in defending himself in this matter.

AIR, this is not new news. Also, AIR, Rumsfeld stated some time ago that he had no intention of making a secret of the fact that these items were in his office, and that he had no intention of keeping them for himself. They would remain at the Pentagon.

Don't forget, he was in the Pentagon at the time of the attack, and physically assisted in the aftermath.

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Poor old Dave K....
by J. Vega / March 12, 2004 10:25 AM PST

Poor old Dave K., at 4:39 in the "Retired Green Beret Takes on John Kerry" thread he called that a "smear machine".
Just 10 minutes later, at 4:49 he comes to this thread and tries to smear Rumsfield.
You just messed it up with that info, Del. Liberal abuse, that's what it is! Shame on you, Del.

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Give it a break Dave. This is getting embarrassing for you. (NT)
by Kiddpeat / March 12, 2004 11:00 AM PST

.

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Re:Shame on you, Kidpete
by Mary Kay / March 12, 2004 9:28 PM PST

Nobody should have to feel ashamed of opinions they express or articles they contribute just because someone else disagrees or worse yet because others might belittle them to make their opinions seem more impornt.. Too many people seem to think that their opinions should be held by everyone. Now if that were true what would we have to discuss?

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Shame on you, Mary Kay
by Edward ODaniel / March 13, 2004 10:15 AM PST

because Dave SHOULD be ashamed for accusing conservatives of using a "smear machine" and moments later doing EXACTLY what he hypocritically accused others of doing.

Yes, he should be ashamed--this was not his opinion, it was an unfounded and hypocritical smear attempt.

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I couldn't agree with you more Ed - as the saying goes "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" and Dave has just thrown a house brick :) NT
by SteveGargini / March 13, 2004 1:52 PM PST
In reply to: Shame on you, Mary Kay

NT

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Re: Shame on you, Mary Kay
by Dave Konkel [Moderator] / March 14, 2004 2:25 AM PST
In reply to: Shame on you, Mary Kay

Hi, Ed.

The difference is that the articles I post (other than those clearly labelled as opinion or editorial) are substantiated, whereas most of the smear machine's work is a simple accusation. Take, for example, the claim about Kerry and the VVAW. The article itself points out numerous contradictory data, and that this is the first time (over Kerry's long career) this charge has been made. Odds are thus extremely high that the charge has as much basis in fact as the claims that Clinton was reponsible for the deaths of Vince Foster and several others in Arkansas. You clear hope is that if you can tie Kerry up in an investigation, it would drain him of the time, resources, and focus needed to mount an effective campaign.

And then there's the long-held American belief that "where there's smoke there's fire." It's that mistaken notion that keeps the Republican smear machine operational, in the hopes that if they fling out enough buckets of mud, a high enough percentage will stick to do the job. But I have news for you -- the public is getting tired of smears and mud, and the unremitting barrage will backfire, just like the images of flag-draped coffins in the WTC pit.
-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Coffins, Dave....
by J. Vega / March 14, 2004 4:53 AM PST

Coffins, Dave? Aren't we getting a bit much?
Are news reports of Kerry's testimony before the Senate committee with those Winter Soldier accusations "substantiated" enough for you?
You said, "and that this is the first time (over Kerry's long career) this charge has been made.". Are you saying that Kerry's claims of a written letter of resignation are not true, or that he resigned over something that he saw that never happened? If it didn't happen and/or he wasn't there, how would he know about it to prompt that letter?

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Pittiful try Dave, especially since you mention 'substantiated' as they...
by Edward ODaniel / March 14, 2004 6:37 AM PST

are not and are only for "shock value" that disappears when the actual circumstances are known.

Regarding Kerry, there wasn't much reason for any national attention to his unamerican activies until he decided to run for President.

When he runs on his record it is quite apparent that elements of his record that he would rather not have known will be made known so Americans can see what he really is.

The "allegations" that have you upset are better substantiated than ANYTHING you have posted to date.

This country has no need for a flip flopping "leader" like Kerry and the reasons have been stated time and time again. He is quite willing to surrender the sovereignty of the United States and has plainly stated as much with his comments about being subordinate to the UN.

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Re: Pittiful try Dave, especially since you mention 'substantiated' as they...

"Unamerican Activities," Ed? Why don't you resurrect the HUAC for the occasion? Once again -- criticism of the then-current Administration, even in time of war, is not "un-American." Love of country is not "my country, right or wrong," as those on the right continually claim. That's simply abdication of moral responsibility, and can in extreme cases even be criminal, a principle we ourselves established at Nuremburg.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Abdication of moral responsibility, Dave...

Dave, how about when Kerry was Chairman of the Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs? When people bought up concerns that some POWs might have been left behind, did not Kerry say that they were "professional malcontents, conspiracy mongers, con artists, and dime-store Rambos"? I think I mentioned the tactic of attacking people who had suffered a loss before. His support of the "People's Peace Treaty" is another story, it is a long time till the election, that and other things will come up as time rolls on.

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Obvious you do not understand patriotism at all...

but that is nothing new.

What I am curious about is why YOU resurected a thread that had finished back a month and a half ago.

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Re: Obvious you do not understand patriotism at all...

Ed, we'll just have to disagree about what true patriotism requires when your country is rushing for the cliff. As for "why YOU resurected a thread that had finished back a month and a half ago," I was actually looking for the coffin picture thread and searched on "coffins," which brought me to your message. I only realized the age and context after I'd hit the "post" button.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Your resurrection excuse stinks, Dave...
by J. Vega / April 27, 2004 10:19 PM PDT

Yeah, Dave, you did a search on the word coffin and it led you to the Edward post that you used to light off this old anti-Republican attack. But the post to which you responded did not have the word coffin in it. Even John Kerry could have come up with a better "backpedal".

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Re: Your resurrection excuse stinks, Dave...
by Dave Konkel [Moderator] / April 27, 2004 10:54 PM PDT

C'mon, J. Your insistence that the sun must rise in the west if I say it comes up in the east is getting tiresome. Look at the thread tree immediately above Ed's message (to which I replied) and you'll see a message (ironically, from you) entitled "coffins, Dave?"

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Still doesn't fly, Dave...
by J. Vega / April 28, 2004 1:27 AM PDT

Dave, if you saw my post in the thread, surely you saw the first one that started it not too far above slugged "Rumsefeld kept 9/11 plane piece as souvenir". It was your post that started it, and you don't remember that it was so long ago? BTW, I also had a problem with the "security" reason for your trip, there are other Moderators. It has nothing to do with the direction of the sunrise, Dave, some things just hit my eye because that are unusual or not expected.

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Have you EVER been ready, willing and able...
by Edward ODaniel / April 28, 2004 12:59 AM PDT

to lay down your life for your country Dave?

Honest answer. NO? that explains why you do not understand what patriotism is about and that "cliff" is a figment of your imagination.

As for your answer to my question, I see why but wonder why you didn't check dates before posting. Skimming? Wink

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What do you mean?
by Dan McC / April 28, 2004 1:19 AM PDT

Your statement is unclear but you seem to be saying that only those who have served in combat understand patriotism. Or is it that you have to serve in the military to understand patriotism?

What is it that you're saying? How do you determine who is ready, willing, and able to lay down their life for their country? I really what to know how you make that judgement. Please.

Dan

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A crystal clear pool would be unclear for you...
by Edward ODaniel / April 28, 2004 4:39 AM PDT
In reply to: What do you mean?

but that is nothing new is it.

Try reading it again (and again and again if necessary) and if you use a dictionary and don't try to see what is not there I am sure you will eventually understand.

I said what I mean and mean what I said.

Angeline has never served in the military BUT I am as certain of her patriotism from her words and deeds as I am of your lack of it, and for the same reasons.

Angeline is left of center most of the time so she falls into the Liberal Camp, so even you should see that Patriotism is NOT just a Conservative Label, it is a state of being and a willingness to do and the ability to see and understand that certain actions are potentially harmful to the country or its military services.

A Patriot understands what "My Country right or wrong!" REALLY means as well as what "Loose lips sink ships!" is all about.

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My country right or wrong.
by Dan McC / April 28, 2004 6:38 AM PDT

If right to keep it right.
If wrong to make it right.


Your opinion of my patriotism is of equal value to and of less concern to me than the dirt under my fingernail. Your inability to see anything but what you have already randomly decided as true approaches that same magnitude.

I asked how you decide these things and your answer was even more dull and limited than I had expected.

Dan

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It appears that either you have difficulty reading or lost your dictionary.
by Edward ODaniel / April 28, 2004 1:51 PM PDT

Patriot - Jane Fonda
Yes or no?

Patriot - Benedict Arnold
Yes or no?

Patriot - Betsy Ross
Yes or no?

Patriot - Benjamin Franklin
Yes or no?

Patriot - Draft Dodgers
Yes or no?

Patriot - Concientious Objector who served in a VA Hospital
Yes or no?

You should clean your fingernails--could be accomplished while making use of a dictionary to decipher the words you can't understand like PATRIOT.

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(NT) Message has been deleted.
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Appearances must deceive you constantly.

The world must look surpasing strange to you since you've chosen to see it in only black and white.

Dan

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Re: My country right or wrong
by Dave Konkel [Moderator] / April 29, 2004 3:16 AM PDT

Ed, that attitude is not patriotism -- and it's what the world hates about us. There's not a lot of difference between "my country right or wrong" and "Deutschland

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Well, that's finally out of the way....
by J. Vega / April 29, 2004 3:37 AM PDT

Well, finally the inevitable reference has been made with "Deutschland

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Re: Well, that's finally out of the way....
by Dave Konkel [Moderator] / April 29, 2004 4:48 AM PDT

Hi, J.

Other the language and that one's a slogan, the other a song, I see zero difference between the two. Note that I am not saying there's no difference between the two countries -- far from it. Our ideals are noble and good, whereas they were bent only on world domination for their own sake. But we all too often fail to live up to our ideals, or else the majority really only see them as code words, and "democracy" doesn't really mean "the right of a free people to choose their own form of government," but rather "a government that agrees with us." That's certainly what our actions against Allende's Chile would indicate, frinstance... Even the Boy Scout motto is "for God and Country." Note the order, however -- what if it's a choice between God (or at least what's right) and country? The moral choice is not "country" under those circumstances.

-- Dave K.
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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I do understand that you THINK Patriotism is...
by Edward ODaniel / April 29, 2004 6:11 AM PDT

questioning everything the CiC does (unmindful of your own lack of knowledge) and that you think Demonstrations (also known as mob rule) are somehow superior to the votes of the ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES but you are wrong.

You have absolutely no real understanding of Patriotism and that is quite likely why you are unable to answer the rather simple question of being ready willing and able to lay down your life for your country Dave. Instead you try to avoid it and talk around it and yes Dave you became employed where you presently work during a time when this country was so threatened--the cold war was real and many patriots did lay down their lives while you lounged in Academic comfort.

You EXPECT your freedoms, but can't understand their actual costs. Your comment indicates a fixation with "Deutschland

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Freedom is doing only what bush wants you to do.
by Dan McC / April 29, 2004 6:15 AM PDT

That about cover it, Ed?

Dan

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Re: Freedom is doing only what bush wants you to do.
by Dave Konkel [Moderator] / April 29, 2004 1:39 PM PDT

Hi, Dan.

Reminds me of the only time I walked out of Church over a sermon, as a priest was saying "Man has free will only to do what God wants him to do." That's the attitude that led to burning heretic at the stake -- and now leads the Church to condemn politicians who don't vote the Vatican line on abortion, despite separation of Church and State (a concept which the Vatican has specifically repudiated, btw...)

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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