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General discussion

Rosie tied the knot ...

Feb 27, 2004 3:23AM PST

... the heterosexual male population can breathe a sigh of relief Happy

Joke!

Evie Happy

Discussion is locked

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Obviously, you don't know what it means to abandon a child.
Mar 3, 2004 6:27AM PST

Just because you continue to see the child does not make abandonment any less real. You've moved out. You've broken the family relationship. You're not there functioning in the role of mother or father. You're no longer part of the structure that provides security to the child.

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Your definition applies to all broken marriages....
Mar 3, 2004 10:19PM PST

....not just those resulting from one partner being gay.

I don't happen to agree that it's as black and white as you're making it out. I'm not saying divorce is a good thing, but sometimes it's the better of two bad choices.

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Josh states it perfectly. -nt
Mar 1, 2004 11:42PM PST

.

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And it's not always a lie
Feb 28, 2004 8:22PM PST

While there are certainly cases where the person who leaves the spouse knew all along that he/she was attracted to members of the same sex (and may have entered into the marriage as an act of denial), there are also plenty of cases in which the person does not know until well into the marriage that he/she is gay. They may have started getting that feeling that something "isn't right" but couldn't pinpoint the reason, for months or even years.

People get hurt in both cases, but in the latter I don't think there's any intent or disregard for the feelings of others.

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If this is the case ...
Feb 28, 2004 9:53PM PST

... for the sake of the kids, either he/she should stay in the marriage until the kids are grown, or divorce amicably, maintain a relationship with the kids, and keep their sexual orientation and lifestyle discrete. In a perfect world I suppose finding out one's parent was gay would have no impact on a child. But it's not a perfect world.

Evie Happy

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Absolutely right Evie - and those kids go through hell at school when word gets out - In this country they get bullied to hell :( NT
Feb 29, 2004 2:55AM PST

NT

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Re:Absolutely right Evie - and those kids go through hell at school when word gets out - In this country they get bullied to hell :( NT
Feb 29, 2004 5:40AM PST

Not to speak to speak about the adopted children and artifically inseminated Female Gays. School will be tough on those kids.
We have 2 young women in town here who are openly Gay. Recently one gave birth to a son through artifical insemination. A test tube baby. Wheres it all going to end?

george

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A good question George - where the hell does it end -
Feb 29, 2004 7:48AM PST

I would hope that all children brought into this life get lots of love and good caring, come what may of how they got here ! but the poor little souls may be subjected to some pretty horrible remarks at school from other children. The school bullies with have a field day unfortunately Sad

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That's not a failing of the parents
Feb 29, 2004 10:54PM PST

That's a failing of the school to allow bullying under any circumstances. Why are you blaming the victim and their family?

Dan

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Re:If this is the case ...
Feb 29, 2004 6:23AM PST

Hi, Evie.

The real problem, of course, is when the kids themselves are gay. Highest suicide rate in the age-group with the highest overall suicide rate. But the conservative answer to the problem is to ban organizations like the Gay-straight Alliance.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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I keep hearing that Dave, but no one ever backs it up.
Feb 29, 2004 6:34AM PST

Where are the statistics to prove that claim? Why, when homosexuality is so widely applauded today, would that still be a factor for any kid?

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About Gay and Lesbian Youth Suicide
Feb 29, 2004 7:45AM PST

.
It has been estimated that as many as 30% of the completed youth suicides in the United States involve, as contributing factor. Confusion over identity and or isolation because of sexual identity.

30% of Gay Youth attempt suicide near the age of 15.

Gays and Lesbians are two to six times more likely to suicide than heterosexuals.

Almost half of the Gay and Lesbian teens state they have attempted suicide more than once.

50% of all gay youth reportedly experience suicidal feelings.

Gay males, Lesbians, and bisexual youth comprise as much as 25% of youth on the streets.

According to the United States Department of Health and Human Services, 26% of young Gays and Lesbians are forced to leave home because of conflicts over their sexual orientation.

It has been conservatively estimated the 1,500 Gay and Lesbian youth commit suicide every year.

28& of Gay and Lesbian youth drop out of school because of discomfort in the school environment.

http://www.speakforthem.org/suicidefacts.html

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The thing is ...
Feb 29, 2004 8:39PM PST

... many of those statistics & symptoms apply to childre/teensn who have been victims of child molestation. There is a disgustingly high percentage of gays who report their first sexual experience with the same sex being with an adult, as well as surveys of adult male homosexuals revealing a surprisingly large portion who were molested as children and are grappling with the ramifications of that. Part of that feminist screed the ****** Monologues initially had an adult female plying a 13 y.o. with alcohol and then deflowering her. The girl described this as (paraphrasing) "if it was rape it was a good rape". That's lately been cleaned up, but not forgotten.

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If we assume that these statistics are correct, these suicides could be occurring
Mar 2, 2004 1:49AM PST

because there's no help for these kids. They're presumably trying to escape from fears of homosexuality, and are offered only 'learn to live with it'. They are told that this tendency can't be changed.

They are apparently not told that, for example, their feelings may be normal and do NOT mean that they are homosexual. They are apparently not offered any counseling or hope of treatment for a condition that they do not want to have.

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Right! It's all about ME isn't it?
Feb 29, 2004 6:25AM PST

I must be what I want to be no matter who suffers or what prices others may pay. It's my god given right to do my thing, and to h*ll with anyone who may be hurt by it. Right?

Sorry, but part of life is sacrifice. You cannot always do what you want. It is your responsibility to put the welfare of those who depend on you before your own welfare.

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What you (and Evie) don't seem to want to address is.....
Feb 29, 2004 10:14PM PST

.....the fact that keeping a bad marriage together "for the kids' sake" can do them more harm than the truth would, whether it's a gay parent or any of the myriad other reasons people divorce.

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Who told you that?
Feb 29, 2004 11:13PM PST

What's your evidence?

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Huh?
Feb 29, 2004 11:17PM PST

That's new to you? I can't help that. Maybe you need to get out more or something.

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Right, that's one of the old lines used to justify divorce.
Feb 29, 2004 11:26PM PST

It would be bad for the kids if we didn't divorce. Well, we know now that children of divorce are more likely to see their standard of living decline, and are more likely to suffer from a host of social problems. I can research that if you wish. I guess you'ld rather throw out unsupported statements than obtain facts to back up your position.

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Not an 'old line' but life experience
Mar 1, 2004 2:12AM PST

My parents divorced when I was five. My dad wasn't an abuser, wasn't an alcoholic, wasn't a gambler, wasn't a criminal. He was a rather immature man and yes, he could be quite selfish.

The only memories I have of my mother and father together are of them fighting. When they split up, yes, we had some lean times, didn't always have the things our friends had, but we managed and my sister and I had pretty happy childhoods, all things considered.

Many years later my mother met a man and remarried. They've been happily married for over 20 years, a happiness neither of them would have found if my mother had remained married to my father. I think it's also reasonable to assume that a childhood in a home in which the parents were constantly at each other would have been a lot more difficult than the childhood I had.

You can demand statistics all you want, but I know I was better off with one parent than I would have been if they'd stayed together.

I'm not saying it's always the case, and I know children of divorce can go through some rough times because of it, but sometimes it's better than the alternative.

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The thing to remember is;
Mar 1, 2004 4:26AM PST

even though God said he "hates" divorce, he didn't forbid it. In fact he's the one through Moses that instituted a divorce decree to make sure a divorce was properly finalized, so both the man and woman were legally free of each other and could marry again. If later the man wanted his previous wife back even though she had already been married to someone else, the divorce decree was proof that he had no further claim to her. Probably prior to Moses decree men would divorce a wife by sending her away, but problems developed if she then went to be with another man and the first man, using his claim of being her husband would force her back or accuse her of adultery, even though he is the one that rejected her. When Christ came along he mentioned that the only principle that God looked at as an acceptable reason for divorce was cheating on a spouse, that is adultery. He didn't forbid divorce but pointed out that if a man divorced his wife who had remained faithful to him, then he bore the sin or responsibility for it, since in his statement he obviously thought it likely she would get married to someone else. At the point she became the wife of another man, the previous marriage was considered irrevocably broken, or adulterated. Any sin involved in such a divorce empty of the valid reason was blamed not on the woman that married another, but upon the husband that divorced her without cause. In other words he couldn't claim she was still his wife and now an adulteress. Jesus was saying that the husband was guilty of the adultery because he "caused her to adulterate" their relationship.

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That means that, as a five year old, you experienced abandonment, and
Mar 1, 2004 4:44AM PST

subsequent 'poverty' because your parents failed in their responsibility to you. I was not much older when my mother died, and that too was abandonment to my childish mind. It's easy to rationalize and say it worked out for the best. However, my understanding is that those who stay together wind up happier within five years. In other words, they work it out if they don't pull the plug.

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Oh dear me, KP
Mar 1, 2004 5:02AM PST

I am not rationalizing. I'm quite happy. Really.

Some couples can work it out. Some can't. Some pull the plug too soon, before they really know.

That's how life is.

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Re:Right! It's all about ME isn't it?
Feb 29, 2004 10:59PM PST

Are you in favor of banning all divorce, also? That would follow from your arguments.

Dan

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Red herring?
Feb 29, 2004 11:20PM PST

Why would it follow from my arguments? I didn't mention 'banning' divorce. Sure, all divorce is bad especially for the kids, but this type is particularly egregious. I suspect most divorces are due to anger and conflict, but this type is due to selfishnous.

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Most divorces I've seen are based on
Feb 29, 2004 11:25PM PST

selfishness. Probably the second reason is the effects of jealousy, often displayed in a desire to control the other even to exclusion of friends of the opposite sex. That second reason also is tied into resultant violence in the relationship.

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Re:Rosie tied the knot ...
Feb 27, 2004 4:17AM PST

Will it be recognized in the state they live in? And is there no waiting period or residency clause in California? I just think there are many unanswered questions .And for the record I don't care what they do. This is a legal marriage and not a religious sacrament.

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San Francisco doesn't need no stinkin legal technicalities!
Feb 27, 2004 5:50AM PST

To paraphrase a famous movie. The marriages aren't even recognized in California, and many states have passed laws stating that they will not recognize such marriages.

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I thought it was illegal in California...violation of the law... so how can be recognized? Symbolic only huh?
Feb 27, 2004 7:30AM PST

.

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Rosie - your 15 minutes are up
Feb 27, 2004 4:18AM PST

First she lost the lawsuit, Then her play flopped. Now she is seeking camera time by bad mouthing Bush's speech. Her poor "wife" looks like such a quiet person. Time for Rosie to crawl off and join Kathy Lee for coffee.