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General discussion

Rooftop solar panels/tubes --> problems for firefighters...

Oct 23, 2008 12:30AM PDT

Rooftop solar panels/tubes --> problems for firefighters...

I was just thinking about how a lot of solar cell technology is getting better every week and it's great, but they would be very problematic for firefighters that have to get on a roof and vent the building/house to gain strategic access, reduce the heat load, slow spread of the fire, and prevent a flashover.

If you have an "easily removable" installation, there's a risk of *theft* - so maybe have a "firefighter key" that can be used similar to how most office buildings have access to water systems, etc. for firefighters...

hmmm...thoughts?

Best,
Shalin

Discussion is locked

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I talked to a firefighter and...
Oct 23, 2008 12:37AM PDT

He walked over and picked up fire ax and said "here's my key."

I don't think they'll take the time to be careful around the solar panels.
Bob

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I agree that an axe/halligan = key, but it adds more time...
Oct 23, 2008 12:50AM PDT

I agree that an axe/halligan bar = key, but it adds more time...

I was a volunteer firefighter for a few years...I can just see how the panels/tube or other pervasive installation would slow down the process. Fires spread quickly so every second counts.

Just makes me wonder if there could be a feasible method to make an installation removable and/or to provide guidelines for installation...

--S

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(NT) and yeah I wouldn't worry about the panels,etc in the proces
Oct 23, 2008 12:55AM PDT
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Hybrid's are worse.
Oct 24, 2008 4:25AM PDT

They have high voltage wires for first responders to content with.

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(NT) They love the gun racks too.
Oct 24, 2008 4:27AM PDT
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yeah, I took a course on hybrids - you gotta be careful...
Oct 24, 2008 4:56AM PDT

if it's bright orange - don't cut into it 'cause it's high voltage. And be careful when you but the supports - you could be cutting into an airbag inflator that still has some energy in it - I wish there could be a "stud finder"-like device to help figure out where those are placed in vehicles...

Best,
Shalin

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Well
Oct 24, 2008 9:19AM PDT

This is a rather trivial concern compared to sustainablility and the planet I think... I mean this is like worrying about a leak in your roof while you're supposed to be heading for the tornado shelter.

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efficient use of intellect; slippery slope of valuing lives
Oct 24, 2008 3:35PM PDT

efficient use of intellect; slippery slope of valuing lives

I do see your point that it's a small issues of saving a few lives that could get in the way of saving billions and it's more worth the energy to keep installing energy efficient everything as much as possible.

However, I think that we can be smart about the installation of the technology w/o too much effort. Also, when we stop worrying about the lives of people in harms way (residents, firefighters, etc.), then I think we are doing ourselves a disservice and we may go even faster down the slippery slope than before.

Best,
Shalin

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THAT took an unexpected turn!
Oct 26, 2008 10:54PM PDT

I didn't take NB's comment that way at all! There was no mention of lives or their relative value. I took it as the issue of sometimes having to smash panels should not be used as an argument to stop taking steps important to saving the planet.

Hedidn't address the issue of how the added delay could have an impact on saving lives--so I get how you took the extra step to talking about lives--but I don't think it was justified to say he wasn't valuing people, I just think he didn't delineate his argument well.

Sorry, just felt harsh. And that was very unusual from you.
Dan

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Well
Oct 27, 2008 4:09AM PDT

shmody did not really say that he was against solar panels, so I don't mind him talking about the needs of fireman, as long as he doesn't forget that we're trying to fight the heating up of the whole world, for those firemen may find themselves having to assist in dealing with food riots and refugees from low lands.

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Wait for it...
Oct 27, 2008 4:15AM PDT

I was hoping someone would note this other solar panel roof -> "Solar Roof Tiles."

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aaahhh...yeah, see - I like that idea lot better. but...
Oct 27, 2008 4:21AM PDT

yeah, see - I like that idea lot better and those products are available in the present day. but...I think it would be best to have a way to de-energize/disconnect the panels through the main circuit breaker box, etc.

Best,
Shalin

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Oh, yeah - okay so lemme elaborate...
Oct 27, 2008 4:37AM PDT

I loooove solar energy solutions, the thought just occured to me that during emergency services, it could take extra time to save/protect lives or property - which is more or less the core responsibility of any fire department and firefighter.

So, in developing solar energy solutions, I think considering the emergency response community should be a part of that and can be done without too much effort. I'm sure there's a no-/low-cost solution to the issue, but I wasn't sure what it could be - so I wrote the post. With a good solution -- double-bonus!

I have to admit, I think there will unfortunately be an accident or worse on a working fire for there to have some installation guidelines taken into account. Fortunately, I think the guidelines will cause no-/low-cost changes to currently installations and future installations.

I think I took, as you say, and "unexpected turn" when I went a little existential and I admit here that *assumed* NB was making known that there may simply have to be priorities made and there will be some winners and losers based on those priorities - just like anyone would make the case for introduction of a new technology that may go through some hard to accept setbacks while working for the greater good. For example - do you know how many people put in harms way their lives and their family's livelihood during the development of aviation and the space race? Probably several hundreds of thousands! But, the court of public opinion (and the people working on the projects) decided it was worth the risk.

uhmmm...so, does that clear up anything?

Best,
Shalin

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Yup--all is good--thanks for clarifiying
Oct 27, 2008 5:51AM PDT

And, as for: "have to admit, I think there will unfortunately be an accident or worse on a working fire for there to have some installation guidelines taken into account...", all too often that's the only way the changes get made. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to anticipate and fix things before a tragedy, and doesn't change the greater good that might feel worth some additional risk (ever seen how many people died doing the Panama canal?), but absolutely should not be assumed to be a zero-sum game either.

2 possible other solutions: I heard a story on NPR about research into automatic nano growth--that is, where the nano tech grows on its own according to a template. One possible path mentioned (besides wall-sized TVs!) was solar film on a roof--let it just replicate itself automatically until the area was filled. Get that working and then the firefighters can just cut thru whatever they need to (I'm assuming this stuff won't be any moticable barrier to that) and then, when everyone's safe, just tell the stuff to grow again! I'nm sure the insurance will cover whatever raw materials are needed <g>

Or, until then, have a wireless device which can only be usedby the first responders--like the one that lets them change all the traffic signals to be in their favor--that cuts the juice to the panels while they're still driving up. I know, hackable to some degree...

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Sorry--should have stopped to find the link(s)
Oct 27, 2008 5:58AM PDT
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grow solar cells through nanotech...that would rock!
Oct 28, 2008 4:23AM PDT

Wireless kill switch could be cool too, but, alas, probably too hackable to be feasible...

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Rooftop solar panels/tubes --> problems for firefighters...
Oct 25, 2008 7:58AM PDT

Could they make solar panels like doors so that they can open them up and then they can get in to the house to fight the fire and also in an apartment building.

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hmmm....good idea! That could be done regardless, however..
Oct 26, 2008 10:20PM PDT

hmmm....good idea! That could be done without any panels, but the problem is that it becomes an unlawful entry point for a thief who wants to gain access to the house. I think a "fire dept key" could work here as well.

--S

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Inherent danger...
Jan 31, 2009 10:43AM PST

Being both electrician and volunteer fire fighter, this is a subject I've recently started studying. Without much backing info at the moment, the first thought I had was DO NOT SMASH PANELS!! The solar cells convert sunlight into energy... in DIRECT CURRENT form. DC (direct current) vs. AC (alternating current)-- DC is one single direct flow of energy as opposed to a current that passes in two directions. What this mean is that if you get "hung up" or "hit" with direct current, there is less chance of you being able to get free of it before being electrocuted to death. When "hung up" or "hit" with AC, because the current is not constant (it cycles at 60 times per second--or 60 Hz) you are much more likely to be able to break free from that current. All energy going through the system from the panels to the inverter is DC current. At the inverter it is processed into AC current.

Secondly, I noticed someone mentioned an idea of having a "firefighter key" for access to the roof. Great idea, but it's not needed. Most panels just lay into track rails and are held in with clips that are easy to remove and take only seconds to do so. The only problem with this is that panels are made of tempered glass. Glass + water = extremely slippery surface. Even put aside on the roof or other panels, they now become a safety hazard to roof ops and ground ops as well.

I don't have solutions at this time, but I'm working on it! Hope this helps you all stay safe.

KMZ

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Hmm
Jan 31, 2009 11:51AM PST

Suction caps?
Maybe metal bars running over the glass to give something for shoes to grip to.

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Colar Cities
Jun 1, 2015 11:45PM PDT

It was interesting to read the comment, who actually has an experience as a firefighter. I think the biggest danger present solar panels that were not installed or even made by professionals. People think that it is so easy and try to save money, though it is too dangerous. At the same time, I think that very soon inventors will find some decision, because there are more and more PV panels owners and I even read the blog post about solar cities http://solarpanelscompany.com/blog/solar-cities/ . So, I hope very soon we will see changes.