General discussion

Remember the Days of AOL's Training wheels?

Remember the days when AOL was referred to "The internet on training wheels"? AOL controlled every aspect of how their customers were able to interact with the internet.... just to make things easier and more convenient for them.

I am beginning to get the impression that Apple is trying to do the same thing, by trying to "control' all aspects of how their devices connect and interact with the internet.

AOL's thinking was they were just making things easier for their customers by doing this.... where is AOL's customer base now?

Maybe Apple should think about that for a while before they dumb down how their devices can interact with the internet.......

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I don't think that's a very valid comparison. Because if you use the iPhone OS it doesn't feel any more babyish than any modern OS, desktop or phone. Just intuitively designed at the things most users need to do. The real problem is the arbitary restictions on the user. The unix core, background apps, install apps from any source. Seriously they just need an expert mode toggle.

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I meant the "We know what is best for you" restrictiveness

I didn't mean to imply their OS was babyish. The OS is quite sound. Just restrictive as you said.

The idea of not allowing multitasking or letting people to choose if they want to use flash is similar to the way AOL had doorways or windows to certain things on the internet but not full access to run whatever they wanted. As people began to realize they could do more with other ISP's they began to leave AOL so they could have the freedom to do what they wanted.

It seems to me that Apple is following a similar doctrine here in saving their customers from themselves. Their OS is very stable because it limits itself in what it can do. Everything is controlled by Apple instead of the user/customer. They know what is best for you... Just like AOL did. Hence the comparison of AOL on training wheels. You are not allowed to fall and skin your knees with Apple's training wheels permanently installed.

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You could also point to console gaming is far more

restrictive than PC gaming but it's been a hell of a success story. Being open at all costs is a doctrine of the open source true believers, not necessarily a recipe for market success. They like to believe that if you operate in a manner contrary to that belief that you will eventually fail. But there are lots of examples where this is simply not true (Microsoft v Apple v Linux, set top boxes, game consoles, etc).

There is a vast market of people out there who don't care that all console games must be be vetted by the console makers. They don't care about all the inside baseball between developers and console makers or Apple. All they care about is does it have lots of apps/games (yes) and is it easy to use. The tight control is what makes a good experience possible. These people are not stupid. They just don;t have the time (nor care to spend the time) "skinning their knees" with computers. This is hard for geeks who think of computers as a hobby and a passion to understand.

Multitasking is coming to OS4.0 so that's not really an issue anymore. Other than an intrusive messaging system that needs an overhaul, I really don;t have a problem with anything on the iPhone.

- Collapse - you want to be sold what to buy?

I have a Ford, to replace the broken windshield I have to go to to Ford (AppleMAC) or can I go to any shop and find something that fits for a quarter of the price (PCs). Ok I choose Ford costs a fortune and probably will last longer but I will go back again and again why? Cos I have been told to do so by a piece of paper that came with the car. heaven forbid that Bill gates ever leaves his garage.

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It?s the free market. If you don?t like it, don?t buy it.

If you don?t like Apple there is Microsoft. If Microsoft is still too restrictive for you, there are numerous flavors of Linux. If you don?t like the restrictions that come with a new car warranty, don?t buy a new car (used ones are much better values anyway) and take it anywhere you like or do the work yourself.

Unlike open source ideologues who fret and worry that Apple is not as open as they believe all companies should be in their perfect open source world, I don?t believe that there is (or should be) just one way of doing business. In fact I think a healthy marketplace will have a multitude of business styles to appeal to a multitude of consumer types. Each way of doing business has its positives and negatives. Open companies give us endless choice but they also give us headaches. Closed companies give us a great experience but also limit choice. Ones in between will be a hybrid. What you value will determine which company you choose to do business with.

The market is going to decide what is successful, not ideologies.

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Nobody is asking the government

To force the app store to be more open. But saying just go to another platform doesn't cut it, that's a very weak attempt to excuse Apple. A bad practise should always receive compliants.

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Excuse Apple for what?

They really don't need excusing. Their closed nature is what has made them successful in the first place. They aren't going to change direction now.

This is the same old Apple. They are opaque. They are control freaks. Any developer who ever imagined working with Apple would be like working with Linus Torvalds is pretty naive.

So people can complain all they want. Somehow I don't think Apple cares about open source geeks posting on the tech discussion boards or ranting in their Twitter feeds about what amounts to little more than inside baseball the general public. They never cared before so there's no reason to think they will start now. These people are not, and never really were their demographic (at least since Steve Jobs came back in the late 90's)

And as maddening as it may be to open source advocates, I suspect Apple will again prove that worshiping at the alter of transparency and openess is not a requirement for marketplace success.

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It's the same Apple that became a successful company because of the openness of the Apple 2. A well designed computer system with colour and a TV out. The 3rd party software and hardware ecosystem is what made it a huge success.
Remember the Macintosh was not really a huge success until the more open and expandable Macintosh 2 arrived.
I think the iPhone goes against Apple's historical nature of being about open systems with simplicity and good engineering, and it's only doing well because in spite of all the restrictions there's still a huge variety of apps out there.

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Apple II was Woz's Apple.. This is Steve Jobs' baby now.

You know, the closed up proprietary baby that brought us the iMac, the iPod, the iPhone and now the iPad. I'd say Apple has been doing very well on its current trajectory, better than they ever did back in the computer enthusiast days of the early 80's. And ever since Job's returned, the open source geeks have b@tched and moaned about how closed their products are how authoritarian Apple is and yet they just keep selling more and more products... much to the open source geeks' chagrin.

I an skeptical that the echo chamber of ranting and complaining we hear right now on the web will really have any effect on Apple's bottom line. Its easy to throw a Twitter tantrum and claim you are going to quit developing for the iPhone. Whether you follow through when you have to answer to investors is another thing totally. Smart business people don't do this. They stay flexible and go where the money is and do what they have to do to make it.

Our business sometimes works with the state of federal which demands we change our normal workflow. Sometimes we have to switch software altogether. We can walk away from a great deal of money and complain to our peers or we can switch gears and find a way to make it work.

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it is as simple as that.

It is good to have a stable PC, stable products always available but what about choice? This is the biggest drawback of Apple. I want my processor to go to extremes, I want to be able to swap my components 'willy nilly' and accept the consequences if they mess up. That's why I love my PCs. My Apple is basically a juke box.

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You can't have both.

You can have simplicity and ease of use via tight control OR you can have infinite open-endedness through lack of control but I have never seen a product that integrates both in equal measures. One always suffers at the hand of the others. And why must all products have both of these ideologies integrated anyway? Isn?t the genius of the free market is that if enough people want something someone will pop up to sell (or give) it to them?

By demanding complete unfettered choice in ALL operating systems the open-source ideologues would gladly take away the choice for control, simplicity and ease of use from others. Yet no Apple or Xbox or TiVo or Wii enthusiast has ever suggested that Linux or Myth TV or PC gaming must have more control and vertical integration (at least that I?m aware of).

It?s not a belief in open source that bothers me, it?s the assumption that the gospel of open source must govern ALL products in the free market. It?s really a lot like a religious zealotry (and its zealotry which makes Apple fanboys look like total amateurs). It?s ironic that many of these open source zealots consider themselves libertarian because limiting other people?s choices in the name of your own choices is about the least libertarian value I can think of. A true libertarian is happy to live their lives making their own choices and leave others to theirs.

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Politics is it now?

You have aired a good point there. About prostitution I'm liberal, about overseas compmies and workers taking my job - I'm democratic. Yep could go on forever, if you like an Apple buy an Apple, just be prepared to accept the only upgrade you'll ever get is to buy a complete $1000 new machine. Buy a PC and be a rebel, who knows you might enjoy being a rebel.

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Not you necessarily.

Nor anyone else on this thread in particular. But man can some open source ideologues be annoying. And oh so demanding and condescending.

And let's leave the "rebel"/"maverick" self-identification to clueless politicians.

My point is that there is a large market out there that is more than willing to pay for a good experience with technology and companies like Apple have tapped into this market. For some reason this really infuriates a some open source evangelists. Why they should care about Apple's business model is beyond me when they never have and likely never will buy an Apple product is beyond me. There are plenty of other companies and open source organizations who will give these people what they want so what's the problem?

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Why they should care about Apple's business model is beyond me when they never have (and likely never will) buy an Apple product.

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Yes you can

Compared to the iPhone the Macintosh is a totally open ended system. Both are easy to use.
Jobs always said the goal of OS X was to be like a pixar movie. That is to appeal to both the smallest child and the smartest adult.

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Strangely, my 80 year old mother

has had a Mac for 3 years now and still has trouble understanding some of the basic concepts. Yet she picked up the iPhone right away.

OSX provides a better experience than windows, but that still doesn't make it fall at the far end of the simple and easy to use spectrum. There's a large, underserved market at the end of the spectrum.

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But you know, all that's really required is an expert mode toggle. An Apple supported jailbreak. And you satisfy every level of user.

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Better experience than Windows?

Tell that to the millions of Windows 7 users who are overwhelmingly happy with the OS. I use a Mac at work (as well as Windows PCs) and Windows at home. I would easily dispute your contention about the so-called better experience. For me, it's not even close. So, you might want to qualify such statements with "in my opinion", because that's really what it is.

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I use windows 7 and XP at work all day.

And Windows 7 is indeed a big improvement over XP. But my home Macs are still easier to use and generally trouble free which is more than I can say about the few installs of windows 7 we have in the office that I have to troubleshoot. Windows 7 work great... until it doesn't. And then you are right back in XP cryptic messageland.

And none of this changes the fact that all my non-geek family members and friends may find win 7 and OSX easier to use than older versions of windows, but they are still not as easy to use as an iPhone or iPad.

People will pay for simplicity.

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Again, just your opinion

I've had more than my share of the spinning beach ball of death episodes on the Mac with OS X, and it's used for a very specific purpose, unlike a home pc that one might have all kinds of software and hardware associated with it. I'm not knocking it as an OS, but Win7 is at least its equal in my eyes, and far, far more functional in terms of usability options (i.e. the available choices of hardware/software).

But I can already see where we're headed here, lol. No need to continue to go round and round. I will again advise to refrain from declarative statements of fact that are really no more than one's opinion or experience, as they are sure to differ with others'.

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How about this?

Macs are a better experience for those who don't don't want to get wound up in the inner workings of their computers.... ie my 80 year old mom, my 57 year old brother, my 60 something mother in law, my father in law, and even my 37 year old partner who does tech support for a living. All of them got fed up with the headaches of running a windows system. Some of them knew how to solve the problems, some just didn't care to deal with it on their time off. They all switched to macs over the last 3 or 4 years and not one of them would now say Windows was a "better experience". Yeah, its anecdotal, but there's a pattern here: not one of these people are people who argue about such things on forums. They are the mainstream, not us.

My 2nd Win 7 install went great... that is until it didn't. Now I've got a work machine that can;t install new software, can't uninstall programs, and can't accept patches or virus updates because of some cryptic message about an "msi installer error". The microsoft self help boards are so painfully long winded and written for sys admins. Mere mortals like me just glaze over when they read them. Even our outsourced IT guys just shrugged their shoulders. My choice is to waste yet another day of my own time on yet another install or to just ride it out until I get a new machine in a month or two.

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MSI (Installer) Cleanup Utility
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(NT) we tried that before. unfortunately it didn't work.
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The irony being that we couldn't install the utility

that's supposed to remove bad installs :-P Nothing, not even the smallest update, can be installed or uninstalled on the machine.

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MSI installer

I see your point and just thought I would add msi installer is related to your motherboard.

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(NT) Thanks. We have wondered if its a hardware thing.
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Try this:

Read this thread. It's about XP, but should still apply:

You're interested in post 6 on, where the MVP talks about deleting all files in %temp% AND uses Winzip to extract the core files from the Windows Installer Cleanup Utility.

I've always found that when trying to delete temp files, the most recent ones won't delete because they are in use and will kill the delete process. So, once I was in my temp folder (%temp%), I would first "view" files in "Detail" mode, then sort by date. I would highlight all files except the ones from the current session, and then try to delete. Then, you can go through the rest one by one to see where you won't be able to delete any further.

OK, that clears out the bulk of the temp folder.

Now, you've got the Windows Installer Cleanup Utility exe file handy, and hopefully, Winzip. Use Winzip to extract the files from the cleanup utility exe, and then doubleclick on the .vbs file (see the thread above) to run the cleanup utility. Hopefully it will now run or install, and then you can use it to clean up previous installs.

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Thanks, but it the command line stuff doesn't seem to work

with Windows 7. Typing %temp% produces the error "Temp' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file."

I'm sure I don't need to point out how this underlines my point about the Windows experience :-P.

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Win 7 FOR ME is a clear winner.

I was a beta tester for Win 7. It is nice to be asked what you like about a product before you buy it. You can see where the comparison is going. XP another great success that's why MS are going to support it until 2014.

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Try this Temp Folder cleaning method in Win 7

And I'll trump you on the "Windows Experience" by letting you know that my my OSX G5 (Tiger) PC's OS got totally corrupted on me this week and needed to be rebuilt from scratch. I ran TechTools and DiskWarrior on it, but there were so many orphaned files without any real indication of where they should reside that it had to be clean-installed Sad

I'm going to get me a copy of SuperDuper and an external drive to back up the OS partition so I don't have to go through that mess again! (I need to use Tiger because it's tied to a particular set of hardware/software -- Pro Tools-- that limits one to that version.)

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