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General discussion

Random Shutdowns

Sep 5, 2004 10:48AM PDT

I recently assembled my own computer. I'm pretty up on the computer world but for some reason this setup likes to shut down on me:

848P-A ECS Motherboard http://www.ecsusa.com/products/848p-a.html
P4 3.0E Ghz Processor
350Watt ATX Power Supply
Nvidia GForce 5200 128Meg Video Card
- I have a cd drive and dvd burner but i don't think those apply here.

I first assembled it all and used 512Meg Corsair RAM but after almost a hundred memory dumps I was told that the ram was the problem. I exchanged that for 512Meg Kingston RAM which should work great.

I reformatted and put my Windows XP Home Edition on the computer. The setup restarted probably 15 times before finally making it all the way through. Then after making it through the install, I still have restart issues. For no reason the computer restarts itself. No warning noises or boxes of any kind. Any Ideas.

thanks a lot,
Bryan

Discussion is locked

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Re: Random Shutdowns
Sep 5, 2004 10:50AM PDT

Sorry to double post, but i neglected to inform that the RAM was DDR 400Mhz.

Thanks
Bryan

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Re: Random Shutdowns
Sep 5, 2004 11:05AM PDT

"P4 3.0E Ghz Processor
350Watt ATX Power Supply"

That's slim for a CPU that can task a power supply with 100 Watts on its own. Add 20 for each drive, then 20 for the stick of RAM and 40 or so for the video card. Your power supply has little spare watts and power supplies degrade by about 1/3 in just a year, especially when pushed.

But first the simple test. Leave the case cover off. Better? Same?

Bob

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Re: Random Shutdowns
Sep 5, 2004 6:35PM PDT

I have left the side of the case off in fear of drastic overheating. The performance is the same. I double checked the seating of the CPU heatsink and fan and it was great. I proceeded in taking my case fan that spits out a great amount of air and aimed it into the CPU heatsink/fan. The amount of slow downs and BSoD have decreased. Is 512Meg RAM enough for my system, now running Windows XP Pro.?

The Memory dumps have all but ceased to exist but now I am left with a random restart. No warnings or beeps of any kind. Is that a power issue also?

Thanks A LOT,
Bryan

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Re: Random Shutdowns
Sep 5, 2004 9:44PM PDT

512 is more than enough like bob sdaid your ps is on the low side

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Re: Random Shutdowns
Sep 5, 2004 11:16PM PDT

"The Memory dumps have all but ceased to exist but now I am left with a random restart. No warnings or beeps of any kind. Is that a power issue also?"

If this is true after pointing a fan at the CPU, then you have the dual problems of too small PSU and a heat issue.

Let me be clear that a 350 Watt PSU is not capable of 350 Watts continuously. There are articles at tomshardware.com about it, but if you added 100 more watts to that PSU, you'd be in the ball park.

Then you deal with the heat...

Just asking. That's a very new CPU. Why not make the supplier fix this?

Bob

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Re: Random Shutdowns
Sep 6, 2004 4:32AM PDT

So if I was put in a 450-500Watt Power Supply I would be in business?

"Just asking. That's a very new CPU. Why not make the supplier fix this?"
Fix the CPU Fan/Heatsink?

Thanks for the help
-Bryan

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Re: Random Shutdowns
Sep 6, 2004 5:33AM PDT

Bob
Is there a way I can identify the wattage size of a power supply without opening the case?
Thanks

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Re: Random Shutdowns
Sep 6, 2004 6:12AM PDT

If someone doesn't want to look, what can I write?

As to picking the right size, that's a terrible thing to do. You want to supersize the supply so its a non-issue and you know it's not a problem now or in the future.

You can read about power supplies at http://www.tomshardware.com

Best of luck,

Bob

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Re: Random Shutdowns
Sep 6, 2004 7:05AM PDT

What I meant Bob, is there an application like the Aida32 for example, that can read the power supply's wattage so I do not have to open the case?
Thanks

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Not yet.
Sep 6, 2004 7:08AM PDT

There is no digital identifier for the PSU to supply it's wattage capability. One of the big mistakes I see repeated many times is to "pick" the right size PSU. But find that supersizing the supply moves that issue off the table and is much cheaper than a trip to the shop.

Bob

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Re: Random Shutdowns
Sep 6, 2004 2:06PM PDT

Here is a simple test I use when faced with shutdown issues. Start taking the system down to it's simplist configuration until the problem goes away. In other words, disconnect, say your DVD drive then boot up and run the computer to see if the problem reoccures. Continue to do this until the problem is solved. This could indicate a power issue or perhaps a driver issue.

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Re: Random Shutdowns
Sep 6, 2004 12:22PM PDT

While a quality 350W may work, it as well may not once the system gets heated up, and start to degrade due to heat stress. So, a decent 400W+ p/s unit should be seriously considered. Next, a qucik check, but verify you did remove the "protective tape" from the heatsink compound/pad on a OEM type Intel cpu as that will greatly reduce proper cpu cooling. Because your problem arises so qucik it maybe just better to replace the p/s if the cpu is OK in all other regards.
Last words, don't take anything for granted, check it.

good luck -----Willy Happy

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Re: Random Shutdowns
Sep 7, 2004 9:10AM PDT

"But find that supersizing the supply moves that issue off the table and is much cheaper than a trip to the shop."

So is getting a bigger power supply a good idea? I am confused by your statement.

Part 2:

"Next, a qucik check, but verify you did remove the "protective tape" from the heatsink compound/pad on a OEM type Intel cpu as that will greatly reduce proper cpu cooling."

Is that the grey stuff between the CPU and the heatsink/fan? if it is broken, very little, but for the most part together, is it dangerous/bad to be using now?

thanks for all the help guys
-Bryan

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About power.
Sep 7, 2004 9:37AM PDT

Some want an absolutely, this will fix it. There are tests you can do to sniff it out, but we are at 15 or so posts and I'm unsure what tests you've done. The cover off test helps sniff out heat issues. Removing an extra CD/DVD drive lessens the load on the power supply and gives another clue.

You have the machine, you can do tests to see if it gives you the feeling which way to go.

Bob

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Re: Random Shutdowns
Sep 7, 2004 9:59AM PDT

Could be your hard drive they die like that. Are you getting any read or write errors?

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Re: Random Shutdowns
Sep 7, 2004 2:10PM PDT

My hard drive is perfect. I have absolutely no software errors or crashes(With the exception of IE but that is another topic for another day), as noted from the computer log. I have dismantled the computer down to just the hard drive runnin. I took out the dvd burner and the cd burner. They never really effected the shutdown unless i was doing something else strenuous.

The side of the case has been off for a long time and doesn't seem to affect the restarts. Only when multiple applications are launched, not just the memory guzzling ones. The normal setup that will get a shut down is Winamp, AOL Messenger and a couple instances of Internet Explorer.

Tomorrow a new power supply will be purchased and results will be posted. Thanks for the help so far and wish me luck!

-Bryan

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New Problem
Sep 8, 2004 9:25AM PDT

I put some more of the heat stuff between the CPU and HSF. I bought a 500 Watt Power supply today. I still get crashes. They are becoming more regular.

I have a:
848P ECS Board with a 3.0E Processor
Nvidia Geforce FX 5200

It has to be one of these. The capacitors aren't buldgy or broken.

Please help. Its killing me.
-Bryan

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Latest BIOS, BIOS Defaults, then...
Sep 8, 2004 9:59AM PDT

A memory test from http://www.memtest.com

After that, time to dive in the EVENT VIEWER. The case cover must be off during the tests so we know it's not heat.

If you suspect any pests, scan with Adaware, Spybot, Stinger and Housecall. After no pests, tell more about when it resets. And then supply an output of the TASKLIST command if you run XP.

Bob

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Re: Latest BIOS, BIOS Defaults, then...
Sep 8, 2004 1:13PM PDT

Its gotten so bad as to where I cannot get on XP for more than 5 seconds after entering my password, sometimes before i enter my password.
Defective mobo?

I am taking it to a tech guy i know tomorrow and hopefully he can mix and match parts to find the one thing it actually is.
-Bryan

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Re: Latest BIOS, BIOS Defaults, then...
Sep 8, 2004 10:12PM PDT

OK, but the memory test doesn't require XP. Since you can't follow any input from me, what should I do for you?

"A memory test from http://www.memtest.com

After that, time to dive in the EVENT VIEWER. The case cover must be off during the tests so we know it's not heat.

If you suspect any pests, scan with Adaware, Spybot, Stinger and Housecall. After no pests, tell more about when it resets. And then supply an output of the TASKLIST command if you run XP."

Such EVENT VIEWER, scanning for pests can be done in SAFE MODE.

Best of luck finding your issue,

Bob

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Re: Latest BIOS, BIOS Defaults, then...
Sep 9, 2004 4:26AM PDT

There are MANY things that could be wrong with your computer. Unless you're very very unlucky, it's not your power supply--unless I've been following this thread wrong. I doubt it's driver-related, as windows XP comes bundled with a myriad of drivers for more hardware than you could identify ...

Two things that I have not seen mentioned in this thread, however, are the mounting and the case (well ... the switches on the case)! It's possible i missed these two when reading the threads--if so, I apalogize.

Your reset switch may be faulty, and firing off random signals--try disconnecting it: I had the same problem with my computer after buying a new case--it turned out to be a bad reset switch.

Another thing to check is to make sure the board is mounted properly! Make sure you didn't drop a quarter behind it or something silly like that! Make sure everything that needs to be connects IS CONNECTED STURDILY. Make sure nothing could possibly be shorting out. I'd be surprized if that was it.... but stuff happens.

Check your mount and your switches: try disconnecting the reset switch and booting up. Then, if possible, try disconnecting the power switch, and use a spare or something ...

-Jon

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Re: Random Shutdowns
Sep 8, 2004 11:36PM PDT

Bryan,

A re-cap'
Checked for heat/ changed power supply/ checked for pests/ No change in issue.

If all trouble shooting steps where followed provided on other posts with no joy. Lets look at something new.

Something that caught my eye, in one of your posts
"Multipe application are launched" in reference to random shut downs. Sounds like an OC'ed board or CPU.

I mention this due to an ASUS board I purchased and was assured it could handle the Althon XP CPU. WRONG !!!
(Long story that I will Not get into) The board was one ver back and would run an XP1500+ chip real strange. Thinking I had a bad chip, due to the history of the 1500+, I upgraded to a 2000+ and got no boot and an education.

Prowled ECSs' web site and could not find a page listing supported CPUs' nor on the web. Also their are two Ver of this board. Are you sure that the board and CPU match?

Hope this helps
Bill

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Re: Random Shutdowns
Sep 9, 2004 3:09AM PDT

I am running an ECS 848P-A Motherboard with a Pentium 4 3E ghz.
http://www.ecsusa.com/products/848p-a.html - motherboard
This is not the same motherboard that I have. The heatsink they have to the side of the CPU on the board is WAY different from the one that i have. and for some reason that AGP slot is yellow(although I do not think this is the problem as an AGP is an AGP slot).

Should the Heatsink be an indicator to me that I might have the earlier version of the board, possibly not supporting the P4's? It has to be my mobo or CPU because I have elimated all of the other possibilities.

Thanks for the interesting tip
-Bryan

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Re: Random Shutdowns
Sep 9, 2004 6:18AM PDT

Sorry now I am Lost

All Motherboards support certain CPUs'. You cannot mix and match - the pins may be the same but they will not work correctly, if at all. The provided web site giving board specs did not have a supported CPU chart. Now you are saying that the web site board and yours do not match?

Look on the board around the PCI slots or IDE channels and determine which board you have. Then find the CPUs' this board will support.

Heatsink and fan are not an indicator, in any way shape or form, which CPU the M/B supports. You can put on a too small H/S/F combination causing the CPU to over heat. If I remember correctly you bought a retail box h/s/f combination for your size CPU, so that is not a problem.

Find out what board you have !!!
Then you are on the way to solving this issue.

Bill
.

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Re: Random Shutdowns
Sep 10, 2004 2:52AM PDT

Ok well since you can't get into windows try this:
Boot into SAFE MODE(hit f8 after post and select SAFEMODE)

1) Right click on My Computer and go Properties.
2) System Properties should load up, now click on the Settings tab.
3) Look for the ?Start-up and Recovery? button, click on it.
4) Under ?System Failure? you will see a button that says ?Automatically reboot?, deselect that box.
5) Click on OK.

Also what are you Temps? You can find them in Hardware monitor in your Bios
Please, do not add more thermal compound, it should be used in moderation not added in thick goops a thin layer is all you need

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Re: Random Shutdowns
Sep 10, 2004 4:18AM PDT

As you said, you assembled your computer. There could be hardware compatibility issue here. I can see no problem with the memory board as long as the system does a memory count during start-up.
1. Format your HDD using DOS with the /s switch. After formatting, boot from the hard disk, let it stay for five minutes or so and see if something goes wrong.
2. Install Windows (it only takes two to three re-starts to install windows.
3. If the problem arises, then there is a compatibility issue, take note that Windows configures itself to put in memory or file (System 32) whatever you have in the system, speakers, modem cards, USB cards, vga cards etc. so you can use it.
4. Install the video card using the install CD packaged with it.
5. If error arises, strip your system one by one, starting with the CD Drive, then DVD burner, hard drive, just pull-out the IDE connector from its socket. Of course, you need to re-boot in each scenario.
6. Last thing I suspect is the problem with the mother board. Your power supply is just fine. If it overheats, it smokes, then drop dead. Your set-up is fine enough that could even be carried by a 300 watts power supply.

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Re: Random Shutdowns
Nov 12, 2004 1:59AM PST

I had the same problem.

The solution in this case was not to do with any software. It turns out that the CPU heat sink was dirty and when running at close to 100 percent cpu usage the comp would SD. All I did was re seat the ram and clean the heat sink to the CPU whick was completely plugged.