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General discussion

President Bush just gave a national address on TV about Gay marriage

Feb 23, 2004 11:58PM PST

critical of San Francisco, California and Mass. Urges Congress to immediately pass an amendment to the constitution concerning marriage between man and woman.

Bout time.

Discussion is locked

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Mothers and Fathers.
Feb 24, 2004 2:15PM PST

Something that is overlooked in your statement is that most of that type molestation is by a non biological parent, often a second partner of the child's biological parent, either due to divorce (a big cause) or death (a lesser cause). Too often the ones involved in the abuse already were a pervert and targeted the one they married specifically because of the child or children. Just saying "fathers and mothers" is very misleading. I would prefer they limit the terms of parenthood to the actual biological parents for statistical gatherings.

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Re:President Bush just gave a national address on TV about Gay marriage
Feb 24, 2004 10:03AM PST

At some point in my life, around 13 or 14 years of age, girls began to look different to me. All of the sudden they weren't yucky anymore. Something about me began to change and I began to have new feelings. Girls looked good and I began to get aroused by them. This was not a choice that I made, it just happened, it was nature at work.

For most of my life after that it was hard for me to understand how a man could feel the way I felt about girls, towards another man. It seemed beyond comprehension that any man could be aroused by another. At the same time I can say that I never really tried to understand it, it just seemed repulsive, or as some would call it, deviant. Most of the people I met in life believed that men like this had chosen to be this way. This was something else I couldn't understand, why would any man chose to be like this. Something just didn't seem right that this would be a choice that someone would make.

Then I met a friend named Terry. She is a very energetic, outgoing, happy-go-lucky type of person. She is also gay. After we became friends the time came when we could talk about it without feeling uneasy. She explained that she didn't know why, but around 13 or 14 years old, girls began to look different. She didn't know why but she began to feel attracted to them. She explained that it wasn't a choice she'd made, it just happened and to her it felt natural.

For once I could relate to how she felt, I had felt the same things happen to me at about the same age. Like Terry, I hadn't chosen whom I would be attracted to, it just happened. At that point it occured to me that maybe gay people didn't chose to be gay, maybe they are born that way. I realized then that I had never really considered this as a real possibility before. I think it was hard to understand before because I couldn't imagine myself in a gay man's shoes because I couldn't imagine being aroused by a man. It was easy to understand how Terry feels though because it's the same way I've always felt.

This realization caused me to give the subject more thought. Now that I believed that people could be born that way I began to wonder why. Is it a birth defect? Some kind of genetic flaw? Then I thought what difference does it make? If they're born that way then why not treat them the same way I would want to be treated? Why punish them with ridicule or fewer rights over the way they are born? Why not grant them the benefit of the doubt at least that what they feel is as natural to them as what I feel? If there is a God and he/she did make them this way how would he/she feel about me holding his/her actions against them?

Until such time that someone can prove to me that all gay people are the way they are strictly by their own choice and that it is not possible for any of them to be born this way then I feel it is only right to treat them like anyone else. If you disagree with this then we'll just have to agree to disagree. All I ask is that you ask yourself, "What if I'm wrong?"

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Re:Re:President Bush just gave a national address on TV about Gay marriage
Feb 24, 2004 1:36PM PST

Sure Clay, agree. I think it is possible to be born Gay and Gays should be treated like anyone else. I just dont agree with same sex marriage even if it has absolutely no affect on me (figured Dan would ask that). This recent PC crap of "rights' and Gays should be married is just that IMO.... CRAP, that I don't approve of personally. So I don't agree with you Dan, DaveK, or anyone else that push Gay marriage.

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Re:Re:Re:President Bush just gave a national address on TV about Gay marriage
Feb 24, 2004 7:33PM PST
I think it is possible to be born Gay and Gays should be treated like anyone else. I just dont agree with same sex marriage....

Now, should they be treated like everyone else or not? Everyone else is allowed to marry and you've just said that they should be denied this even if they are born that way.
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Yep, they are treated like anyone else......
Feb 25, 2004 7:20AM PST

Gads, they are surely not treated like other past groups ...ie, separate schools, rest rooms, theater seats in the upper balcony , seperate bus & train seats, water fountains, eating counters, beer joints, night clubs, hotels, motels, swimming pools and etc.....

The laws and society are specific...want to live together OK, want to get married... female marry a male, male marry a female. Simple eh, there are a lot of male/female married to the opposite sex and are gay or bi-sexual.

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What about this group?
Feb 25, 2004 7:50AM PST
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Re:What about this group?
Feb 25, 2004 8:47AM PST

That is very sad. Unfortunately there are many birth defect in humans as well as animals and plants. Re the recent two headed baby they operated on, and the numerous Siamese twins. I recall hearing about morphogenesia twin sex birth defects way back when I was a teenager back in the 40's. Don't know how prevalent it is.

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Re:Re:What about this group?
Feb 25, 2004 8:58AM PST

But should they be allowed to marry each other or men or women?

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Sure, I don't see a problem, they may be considered whatever they say they are...
Feb 25, 2004 9:52AM PST

.

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Re:Sure, I don't see a problem, they may be considered whatever they say they are...
Feb 25, 2004 10:06AM PST

So it's OK if they both say they're men or they both say they're women?

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Re:Re:Sure, I don't see a problem, they may be considered whatever they say they are...
Feb 25, 2004 10:21AM PST

Then the law indicates they cannot be married.
I agree with the law.

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Are you actually trying to use physical deformities to justify homosexuality?
Feb 25, 2004 11:05AM PST

Are you saying homosexuals suffer a deformity?

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Re:Are you actually trying to use physical deformities to justify homosexuality?
Feb 25, 2004 11:55AM PST
Are you saying homosexuals suffer a deformity?

Maybe they do. Maybe it's just the cards that nature dealt them. I do believe that many of them are born that way as opposed to making a choice. If there are intersexuals then clearly it seems possible that there can be females born that are attracted to females and males that are attracted to males as well. Some may call it a deformity and others just an oddity or abnormality of nature. Nature/God makes all kinds and it would be unwise for mankind to even pretend to understand the limits or the reasons for the variety of people that are born.

My main point though is the fact that many don't care if they're born that way, they simply believe it should be held against them no matter what the reason they are the way that they are. All that counts is that everyone else should agree with them no matter what. Where does it stop? Should intersexuals be punished for the way they are born too? Maybe as a society we should also punish the people that are born with 6 fingers on one hand or an extra arm growing from somewhere on their body.

If by chance, gays are gay because God made them that way, I'd like to know how he feels about all his supposed followers being so unforgiving towards this segment of his creations.
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Re:Re:Are you actually trying to use physical deformities to justify homosexuality?
Feb 25, 2004 2:37PM PST

"If by chance, gays are gay because God made them that way, I'd like to know how he feels about all his supposed followers being so unforgiving towards this segment of his creations."

Well Clay, I though we were talking about marriage, not "gay bashing" or mistreating people who were born with deformities or born gay. Unforgiving for what? You think we are sinning before God because we don't approve of two men marrying? The way I understood it from a very small boy being told that God created man, then woman. It appears to me that if God wanted a companion of Man to be another Man to also populate the earth, he would not have made a woman, but made another man. Then I would understand a man being married to a man. I'll leave it up to others to quote versus out of the bible that are not favorable in this matter.

I've tried to leave religion out of all my discussions except this one.

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Man's Self-Imposed Rules...
Feb 25, 2004 3:10PM PST
It appears to me that if God wanted a companion of Man to be another Man to also populate the earth, he would not have made a woman, but made another man. - John Robie

Of course for this argument to hold any value, you have to accept that God only made a man and a woman in the beginning. So if you accept that, then you have to accept that God condones incest. If Adam and Eve produced children, the only way to continue populating the world is if Adam and Eve had sex with their children and/or the children had sex together. So for a very long time, God encouraged incest...

Then if you believe in the story of Noah's Ark, God again had to rely on incest to repopulate the planet. Not only did the animals have to mate with their offspring and siblings, but Noah's family had to mate with each other as well. At what point is it no longer considered incest? Second or third cousins???

So either there is something wrong with the reporting of these two events, or God condones a lot more than what most Christians are willing to admit. If the latter is true, then God probably isn't the one with the problem concerning gay relationships since he made them that way to begin with. It's man's self-imposed rules which deny equal rights and opportunities for those who don't conform to his preconceived and erroneous notions of right and wrong...

So will gay couples burn in hell even if they accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior???
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You asking me personally....burn in hell...not that I believe.
Feb 25, 2004 4:00PM PST

.

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Christian Indoctrination...
Feb 25, 2004 4:28PM PST
You asking me personally....burn in hell...not that I believe. - John Robie

There are some who believe in a very vengeful and hateful God. So there is a very long list of issues that supposedly violate God's will so much that they cannot be saved...

But from what I was taught in my Christian indoctrination, there is only one requirement. A person must accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior before they can be saved and go to heaven. That means that they can be in a committed Gay or Hetero relationship and still be saved and go to heaven. There is nothing in the 10 Commandments that deny gay relationships or marriage either. All the other so-called rules are man's self-imposed restrictions...
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Re:Christian Indoctrination...
Feb 26, 2004 4:32AM PST

Hey, I'm not a bible thumper.
Was raised a Catholic, dropped out of going to church/mass a little over 30 years ago....have been divorced... married more than once. Married this time 25 years. I started going back to Catholic Mass almost every Sunday for the past year, but do not participate in the Sacraments.

Yes, I believe homosexuals can go to heaven.
I also believe marriage should be between man and woman.....period..........

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Opinions vs Laws/Amendments...
Feb 26, 2004 5:27AM PST
Yes, I believe homosexuals can go to heaven.
I also believe marriage should be between man and woman.....period.......... - John Robie


You certainly have a right to your opinion. So if I don't believe in divorce, should I try to pass a law that would force you to stay married to your first wife or force you to anul your current marriage and return to the first one? If I don't believe in Catholicism, should I try to pass a law that would force you to attend a Baptist Church instead???
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Re:Opinions vs Laws/Amendments...
Feb 26, 2004 6:39AM PST

I have no desire to discuss my religious beliefs with you and have already revealed more than I had meant to reveal.

Goodbye Blake

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No Obligations...
Feb 26, 2004 5:44PM PST
I have no desire to discuss my religious beliefs with you and have already revealed more than I had meant to reveal. - John Robie

John, you are under no obligation to talk about any of this if you feel uncomfortable about it. I hope you didn't feel pressured into revealing what you did. It wasn't my intention to coerce you to reveal anything you didn't want to reveal...
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Re:Re:Re:Are you actually trying to use physical deformities to justify homosexuality?
Feb 25, 2004 7:50PM PST
Well Clay, I though we were talking about marriage, not "gay bashing" or mistreating people who were born with deformities or born gay.

We are. We're talking about restricting their rights because of how they were born.

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Rights?......
Feb 26, 2004 4:21AM PST

Ah, now we are back to the very 1st post made in this thread. By me saying "Bout time" means I personally agree with the President on an amendment, and disagree with the homosexuals in SE, plus those who don't like the President (and some Democrats/Republicans),and those PC types who have come about in the younger generation with, IMO CRAP.

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Wild Leap of Logic...
Feb 26, 2004 5:19AM PST
By me saying "Bout time" means I personally agree with the President on an amendment, and disagree with the homosexuals in SE - John Robie

Are you attempting to imply that anyone who defends the rights of gays and gay marriage is a homosexual JR? That's a pretty wild leap of logic if it is true. To my recollection, I don't remember anyone ever admitting or claiming to be gay in SE...
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Re:Wild Leap of Logic...
Feb 26, 2004 6:33AM PST

Nope, and leap off your gray horse, I didn't call you one.

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Leap Off Your Gray Horse???
Feb 26, 2004 5:31PM PST
Nope, and leap off your gray horse, I didn't call you one. - John Robie

I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your post John, but it certainly seemed that you made the implication. I've never heard of the term "leap off your gray horse". What exactly does that mean???
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Re:Leap Off Your Gray Horse???
Feb 27, 2004 12:01AM PST

My internal sense of humor Blake...
I first typed 'leap off the podium' (since you used leap), then leap off your white horse, then thought oh...white horse...is for the always "Lone Ranger". Then since we all are talking in the gray area I evolved to "Leap Off Your Gray Horse". We do on occasion try to make horse sense in Texas. Wink

JR

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Re: " Leap Off Your Gray Horse
Feb 27, 2004 12:55AM PST

.

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Re:Rights?......
Feb 26, 2004 7:20AM PST

Like I said in my initial post, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Your position is typical of the christian position even though the possibility exists that God made them that way. I actually believe the President's request for an amendment is based on religious belief and for that reason I oppose it since it would violate the first amendment.