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Pope Reaffirms No Condom Stand After Spain Debacle

by Mark5019 / January 22, 2005 12:17 PM PST

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Pope John Paul on Saturday stressed that the Roman Catholic Church believed abstinence and fidelity within marriage, and not condoms, were the best way to stop the spread of HIV/AIDS.

The Pope's words, spoken to a new ambassador to the Vatican, took on an added significance being his first direct comment on the controversial topic since a Catholic official in Spain this week appeared to question the Church's stand against condoms.

"The Holy See ... believes prevention through education about the sacredness of life and the correct practice of sexuality, that is chastity and faithfulness, is necessary above all other things in order to prevent this disease responsibly," the 84-year old Pontiff said in a written address


i dont want to see disrespectfull but is he for real?

http://reuters.myway.com/article/20050122/2005-01-22T160453Z_01_N2261360_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-POPE-AIDS-DC.html

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does the condom stand alone? :-)
by jonah jones / January 22, 2005 11:00 PM PST

FWIW Mark, if i was an 84yr old bacheleor....i'd be voting abstinence and fidelity too....


HappyHappyHappy


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i see what your saying and
by Mark5019 / January 22, 2005 11:03 PM PST

i just cant see the reality.

do teens listen nope not that most would use them but evan if 1 would

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re:
by MKay / January 22, 2005 11:15 PM PST

And I'm sure if he knew how many of the "faithful" actual use the condom, he would be shocked into reality.Or maybe not....

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(NT) (NT) For once I have to give you credit for your post jonah!
by Charlie Thunell PL&T / January 24, 2005 6:49 AM PST
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Parent to teen son and daugher before friday date
by Steven Haninger / January 22, 2005 11:17 PM PST
"Ok Johnny, whatever you do, keep your zipper up. Now here's your condom just in case you can't."

"Sally, have a good time but come home as chaste as when you left. Have you been taking your BC pills? Well, here's a condom just in case."


So, what's the message? Hey, I'm only asking.:)
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re:
by MKay / January 23, 2005 12:47 AM PST

Even if the parents don't act responsibly, the teens can't get the info and the condoms from other sources. We all hope our kids will wait but alas it doesn't alway happen.I don't find it a problem when the parent says to the daughter... Of course I hope you will not engage in sex, as I feel you are not ready(but of course the child knows better) but if you decide to have sex please come to us first and we will take to to the dr. and have BC pills prescribed for you. Or son please remember the responsibilities that go with fatherhood and how all your plans can be derailed by an unwanted pregnancy. It would be best if you waited til you're able to accept these responsibilities but if not please use a condom.It is just reality.

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You know, I think your answer is more than reasonable
by Steven Haninger / January 23, 2005 2:11 AM PST
In reply to: re:

and should work fine for all parties that are also reasonable. No one wants to think their own kids are anything but good and reasonable, do they?:) Your response speaks to reality and the reality is that kids are not as good and reasonable as we would like to think. I don't know what the answer is but it seems that whatever has already been tried has not worked well enough. By the time these kids reach the teen years and we want to let go of the "leash" a bit, we can't. Why? Because we never had them on a leash in the first place.:)

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Start on Thursday....
by Angeline Booher / January 23, 2005 4:08 AM PST

On Thursday....

"Sally, I don't want to have to raise and support a child again. So you will be living in a tiny apartment. Sam gets home from school, then leaves for his minimum wage job, and tells you he is meeting some friends after work. Your friends have stopped dropping by, The baby has been crying a lot. You are so tired. Or, if you don't marry him, where will you live, who will take care of the baby while you work at a minimum wage? One of your "everybody's doing it" friends? Not I. I'll provide you with a list of social service agencies, that's all.

Keep that picture in your mind, and think how unfair you would be to yourself and Sam."

"Sam, we do not intend to raise another baby. Without more education your job chances are limited. You complain that the money from your part-time job doesn't go very far, though you live at home for free. Do you think you could support a wife and baby on a minimum wage? Remember, you will not be living with us. Or if you do not marry her, could you pay child support? Remember, there are strong laws about deadbeat dads. There could be added costs to prove paternity. And don't forget you are still paying off your car.

Think beyond tomorrow night, son, and if its worth taking a chance."

A "tough love" reality check.

Angeline


click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

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Is he for real?
by Evie / January 23, 2005 1:26 AM PST

I think so!

I realize that in our hypersexualized culture the notion of only having sex with one's spouse seems "old fashioned", but one simply can't ignore that ever since the sexual revolution, STD rates have gone through the roof. This despite the glorification of the condom as being all you need to be promiscuous safely.

Uganda has bucked the trend of the rest of Africa in terms of AIDS by implementing the ABC program. The A & B parts, Abstinence until marriage and Being faithful to one's spouse are the reasons why. Considering the high rates of existing infection in the current population, the C (condoms) are still needed because many babies are born HIV positive, but are otherwise unnecessary for those adhering to A & B.

The Pope is merely clarifying the RC Church's position on this issue. However, ABC need not even be tied to religion. It's more common sense, and for the human secularists out there, respect for one's own body and health. And, after all, choosing abstinence and faithfulness as if one's life depended on it (which is much more the case in Africa than here in the US) couldn't hurt! They have so many condoms in the Phillipines the population is finding alternate uses for them. It hasn't altered the path of HIV.

If we really want to talk about reality, if two people are having sex that don't even know each other well enough to know their partner is HIV +/-, that is in the "reality" of not being able to control their sexual urges, they are highly unlikely to use that condom properly. Study after study shows that even comitted married couples take a year or so of "getting the hang of it" to achieve a pregnancy prevention rate of 97-98%. In the first year, the prevention rate is only about 80%. I'll have to dig and find the study.

Evie Happy

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I think you are dead on
by Steven Haninger / January 23, 2005 2:50 AM PST
In reply to: Is he for real?

I shunned this topic for a bit as I have already "come out" as the resident catholic on SE and I must prepare to be "jumped" for expressing anything so related. But you are right, this is nothing new. The church's stance has never been based on the possible human repercussions of intercourse outside of marriage. If so, once BC and STD prevention had been in place and perfected, I think church may have given the green light. "Ok folks, the problems are fixed. Enjoy!":) Not gonna happen anytime soon if ever. One could well say (as they leave the kids home for the evening), "Ok folks, don't play with matches! But, if you must, do it outside and not while wearing your flammable PJs!" The second sentence gives them an alternative to obedience. Never worked and never will. It's an out for the parents and not a good lesson for the kids.
I need to admit one thing about my youth that might have influenced my own thinking. I was a teen in the '60 and lived in a small town in the midwest. My father was the only OB/GYN in the berg. As such, my HS female classmates were, or would become his patients if anyone had an "oops" or wanted to avoid one. Life was tough some days when he got home. Got some classic lectures! The monastary started sounding like a good place at times!:)

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steve your views are np in my eyes
by Mark5019 / January 23, 2005 3:17 AM PST

i just think the reality isnt there with todays people no matter what religion .

not trying to insult anybody

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Not insulted at all
by Steven Haninger / January 23, 2005 4:03 AM PST

This is a good topic for open discussion. I don't see it as just about "reality" or accepting it. Reality lives and moves. We all get our chance to steer the boat or we can just opt to go along for the ride. It's also about selfishness vs selflessness while we are on our earthly journey. Billy Edd Wheeler wrote a song called "Desert Pete". Look it up sometime. It's lesson applies to many things we encounter when we are at a point of decision making.:)

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Unfortunately, he is.
by Dave Konkel [Moderator] / January 23, 2005 6:19 AM PST
In reply to: Is he for real?

Hi, Evie.

He's for real -- but can you honestly say his answer is the one Jesus would give? This is a less direct but no less deadly version of the Chatholic Church's centuries-long tradition that those who disagree with the Church's position deserve death. They're just letting AIDS take the place of the auto-de-fa. And as usual, his answers bear little resemblance to those I get when I think about a thorny issue, read Christ's Word in the Gospels, and ask myself "What would Jesus say?"

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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What would Jesus say?
by Steven Haninger / January 23, 2005 6:26 AM PST
In reply to: Unfortunately, he is.

Hi Dave,

My answer:

Jesus would speak in a parable and we'd still be arguing about what He meant.;)
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Again ...
by Evie / January 23, 2005 9:48 PM PST
In reply to: Unfortunately, he is.

... I'm left wondering why you remain a Catholic when you are on the other side of so many teachings of the Church.

I really don't know what Jesus would say or do, but doubtful he would advocate sterilization and abortion for population controls of entire populations (one might say races), or showering them with condoms as the only means to prevent STD's. As I said in the previous post, abstinence outside of and fidelity in marriage make common sense in terms of protecting one's health -- a religious basis need not even be applied here. Promiscuous sex -- yes even with a condom -- can be risky, and certainly puts potential "unwanted children" at rather high risk. I highly doubt Jesus would have advocated that engaging in such a lifestyle was a righteous path. You repeatedly preach how Jesus was all about wealth redistribution to raise the plight of the poor. Considering that being born outside of marriage increases the risk of poverty severalfold for the products of those enlightened by the sexual revolution, one has to doubt Jesus thought risking this was a good idea.

Evie Happy

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The Church is wrong on this, Evie.
by Dave Konkel [Moderator] / January 23, 2005 10:00 PM PST
In reply to: Again ...

In fact, Paul VI admitted as much when he overruled his Papal Commission on birth control, which had voted lopsidedly (I'm remembering 18-3, but not positive the number and too lazy to Google it) to overturn the ban, as they previously had the equally idiotic ban on anesthesia (for about 30 years they preached that the benefit of relieving paid didn't overcome the "sin" of depriving man of his God-given senses!) Paul was starting to write an encyclical to overturn it, but changed his mind, not because he agreed the ban was wrong, but because overturning it would "confuse the faithful" and reduce the power of the Church. The Church as a human institution is tragically flawed -- but I believe in the sacraments, and they're the folks who can provide them. So far, nothing I disbelieve has been promulgated ex cathedra, which means that under the Vatican II doctrine of primacy of individual conscincee (which, of course, the reactionary John Paull II abhors, and some of whose theologians he's now suppressed) I'm free to prayerfully ignore.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Paul VI admitted as much?
by Evie / January 24, 2005 12:29 AM PST

I'm not aware of this.

Actually Paul VI was somewhat prophetic in what was issued forth in the encyclical he actually wrote:

HUMANAE VITAE

ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PAUL VI
ON THE REGULATION OF BIRTH


Consequences of Artificial Methods

17. Responsible men can become more deeply convinced of the truth of the doctrine laid down by the Church on this issue if they reflect on the consequences of methods and plans for artificial birth control. Let them first consider how easily this course of action could open wide the way for marital infidelity and a general lowering of moral standards. Not much experience is needed to be fully aware of human weakness and to understand that human beings?and especially the young, who are so exposed to temptation?need incentives to keep the moral law, and it is an evil thing to make it easy for them to break that law. Another effect that gives cause for alarm is that a man who grows accustomed to the use of contraceptive methods may forget the reverence due to a woman, and, disregarding her physical and emotional equilibrium, reduce her to being a mere instrument for the satisfaction of his own desires, no longer considering her as his partner whom he should surround with care and affection.
{emphasis mine}

Since the contraception revolution, the rises in the illegitimacy rate, absent father homes, abortion rates and STD epidemics bear out this warning Paul VI issued.

The CDC has issued a comprehensive report on condom effectiveness that was largely ignored by the condom pushing crowd. Uganda's ABC program has succeeded where condom distribution schemes have failed because of the A and the B. Without them, the use of the C to decouple the act of sex from possiblie consequences will only lead to further STD disease epidemics. The promiscuous using contraception are relying on it to absolve them from any possible consequences/responsibilities. Expecting responsible use by a population engaging in irresponsible behavior defies reality. That's why with the normalization of contraception in our society, we have been beset with an increase in "unwanted pregnancies". Those that are not aborted literally become the "poster children" for social welfare programs lest the children suffer the "sins" of their irresponsible parents. A pathetic substitute for engaging in less such activity for fear of pregnancy out of wedlock and "stepping up to the plate" when such did occur.

Evie Happy

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