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General discussion

Pope: How Could God 'Tolerate' Holocaust

May 28, 2006 12:46PM PDT

OSWIECIM, Poland (AP) - Pope Benedict XVI visited the Auschwitz concentration camp as "a son of the German people" Sunday and asked God why he remained silent during the "unprecedented mass crimes" of the Holocaust.

Benedict walked along the row of plaques at the Auschwitz-Birkenau complex's memorial, one in the language of each nationality whose members died there. As he stopped to pray, a light rain stopped and a brilliant rainbow appeared over the camp.

"To speak in this place of horror, in this place where unprecedented mass crimes were committed against God and man, is almost impossible - and it is particularly difficult and troubling for a Christian, for a pope from Germany," he said later.

"In a place like this, words fail; in the end, there can be only a dread silence, a silence which itself is a heartfelt cry to God: Why, Lord, did you remain silent? How could you tolerate all this?"

Benedict said that just as his predecessor, John Paul II visited the camp as a Pole in 10979, he came as "a son of the German people."

"The rulers of the Third Reich wanted to crush the entire Jewish people, to cancel it from the register of the peoples of the Earth," he said, standing near the demolished crematoriums where the Nazis burned the bodies of their victims.

"By destroying Israel with the Shoah, they ultimately wanted to tear up the taproot of the Christian faith and to replace it with a faith of their own invention."

Shoah is the Hebrew term for the Holocaust, during which the Nazis killed 6 million Jews.

As many as 1.5 million people, most of them Jews, died at Auschwitz and Birkenau, neighboring camps built by the German occupiers near the Polish town of Oswiecim - Auschwitz in German. Others who died there included Poles, Soviet prisoners of war, Roma - or Gypsies, and political opponents of the Nazis.


(AP) Pope Benedict XVI prays in front of the memorial plaques at the former Nazi Death Camp Birkenau, in...
Full Image


Benedict did not refer to collective guilt of the German people but instead focused on the Nazi regime. He said he was "a son of that people over which a ring of criminals rose to power by false promises of future greatness


beats me how he could if there was a "god"


http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060528/D8HT21CO0.html

Discussion is locked

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I'm surprised that a Pope would ask such a question.
May 28, 2006 1:02PM PDT

One would think he would have an answer to the question.

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(NT) (NT) strange but to each his own
May 28, 2006 1:05PM PDT
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There's an excellent book by a Rabbi on the topic, KP
May 28, 2006 1:13PM PDT

The title is something like "Why bad things happen to good people."

The problem is the tension between God's gift of free will (which must include the ability to do evil) with the paradox of how an all-good, all-powerful God can allow evil to exist. to me, it's a "mystery," like the Trinity. I do recall and apply the words of Isaiah: "So high above our ways are the ways of the Lord," meaning that mere humans can't necessarily understand them.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Wrong tone, if you read the whole thing
May 28, 2006 3:44PM PDT

1
1 All you who are thirsty, come to the water! You who have no money, come, receive grain and eat; Come, without paying and without cost, drink wine and milk!
2
Why spend your money for what is not bread; your wages for what fails to satisfy? Heed me, and you shall eat well, you shall delight in rich fare.
3
Come to me heedfully, listen, that you may have life. I will renew with you the everlasting covenant, the benefits assured to David.
4
As I made him a witness to the peoples, a leader and commander of nations,
5
So shall you summon a nation you knew not, and nations that knew you not shall run to you, Because of the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, who has glorified you.
6
Seek the LORD while he may be found, call him while he is near.
7
Let the scoundrel forsake his way, and the wicked man his thoughts; Let him turn to the LORD for mercy; to our God, who is generous in forgiving.
8
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the LORD.
9
As high as the heavens are above the earth, so high are my ways above your ways and my thoughts above your thoughts.
10
For just as from the heavens the rain and snow come down And do not return there till they have watered the earth, making it fertile and fruitful, Giving seed to him who sows and bread to him who eats,
11
So shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; It shall not return to me void, but shall do my will, achieving the end for which I sent it.
12
Yes, in joy you shall depart, in peace you shall be brought back; Mountains and hills shall break out in song before you, and all the trees of the countryside shall clap their hands.
13
2 In place of the thornbush, the cypress shall grow, instead of nettles, the myrtle. This shall be to the LORD'S renown, an everlasting imperishable sign.

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Me too...
May 29, 2006 12:25AM PDT

It almost implies that he questions the very existance of the God he claims to believe in.....

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Actions have consequences
May 28, 2006 1:16PM PDT

That is what is called free will. We can make terrible choices and follow pure evil. That is our choice. Right now there is murder in so many parts of the globe, it's difficult to keep track. Evil is not limited to Nazis.

Remember that God also takes the long view. Israel would not exist today without the holocaust. Also remember that six million Jews were terminated and five million others.

People say how can God allow such things to happen. I say why not? We make the choices.

I made choices to not save enough because I thought I could continue working in my field until I retired. I am paying the price for that decision. I don't blame anyone else for my decisions. I am not a victim. I can feel sorry for myself but I don't blame anyone else for my choices.

The ones I feel sorry for are the ones that suffer because of the evil in the world. But there are those that choose to follow these evil ones and they have the free will to do it.

Should God intervene in every case where a bad person does something wrong? Perhaps he should just eliminate all the bad guys in infancy? Then we wouldn't have the choice to follow the good guy - he would be the only one left. Scratch free will.

Diana

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(NT) (NT) and i suppose the jews were at fault?
May 28, 2006 1:20PM PDT
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I don't know if we have the wisdom to answer that question.
May 28, 2006 1:27PM PDT

In one sense, we are all at fault. We all rebel and disobey God's commands, but expect Him to then shield us from the evil that is thereby loosed in the world.

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(NT) (NT) I'll not take credit for evil doers
May 28, 2006 3:37PM PDT
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(NT) (NT) Only for your own evil deeds
May 28, 2006 9:27PM PDT
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(NT) (NT) I really am a nice guy
May 29, 2006 5:12AM PDT
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(NT) (NT) I'm sure you are
May 29, 2006 1:08PM PDT
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(NT) (NT) Wife says I'm an angel ;-)
May 30, 2006 11:16AM PDT
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(NT) (NT) No
May 28, 2006 1:37PM PDT
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She's talking about the people that do the evil ...
May 28, 2006 1:52PM PDT

... and perhaps (don't want to speak for Diana here) including those that did nothing to stop it.

Evie Happy

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My understanding is that God does not give much
May 28, 2006 9:12PM PDT

priority to earthly life which, when compared to offer and promise of an eternal life of happiness, is but a small spark in a dark forest that goes unnoticed by most. Happy

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proves that god is a woman ;-)
May 29, 2006 12:54AM PDT

my wife has the same philosophy....

it's your choice jonah, you can do what you want....but!

Happy

.

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Easy. In God's time he didn't tolerate it at all
May 29, 2006 4:14PM PDT

I'm not sure how the Pope missed this one.
The bible makes clear that to the bible-god a thousand years and one day are the same thing:

Psalm 90:4

For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

and

2 Peter 3:8

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The fact that one day equals a thousand years equals one day to the bible-god means that the bible-god saw the holocaust and in less than the blink of god's eye put a stop to it. In other words to god the holocaust barely lasted a second and he put a stop to it quicker than immediately.

Secondly, the bible makes clear that Jesus allows evil to happen:

Amos 3:6

shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

That means bible-god allowed the holocaust to happen. Amos 3:6 means the holocaust has a place somewhere in bible-god's plan and/or that the bible-god is truly evil.
The Catholic god is a mysterious god so if you're a Catholic you can perhaps content yourself on this question with the knowledge that you will never know or discern the ultimate nature and reality of the holocaust.
If you're a Protestant I don't know how you answer this question except to say you might quote the same verses I have in this post.

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you sure about this?
May 29, 2006 8:07PM PDT
if you're a Catholic you can perhaps content yourself on this question with the knowledge that you will never know or discern the ultimate nature and reality of the holocaust

i'm sure 3+ million catholic poles will be happy to R.I.P with those few words of comfort....


.
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(NT) (NT) Am I sure about what Jonah?
May 30, 2006 5:59AM PDT
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A big part of the answer is
May 30, 2006 7:10AM PDT

that no gods exist. Even if they did why would you want to have dealing with them if they let such things happen?

Dan

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(NT) (NT) dan mark your calender we agree on that:)
May 30, 2006 7:15AM PDT
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(NT) (NT) Nice post Mark, I liked this one a lot. Thanks
May 30, 2006 8:24AM PDT