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General discussion

"Pope Benedict XVI called Sunday for an end to all wars

Jul 22, 2007 1:31PM PDT

Pope Benedict XVI called Sunday for an end to all wars, describing them as "useless slaughters" that bring hell to Earth.
...Benedict did not cite any particular conflicts in his comments to several hundred faithful who gathered in Lorenzago di Cadore's main piazza for his traditional Sunday blessing.
...He reminded the faithful that God put man on Earth to take care of his "paradise," but that man sinned and began making war."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070722/ap_on_re_eu/pope_peace

If his words have any effect it will be good news for the next set of civilians who would have been caught in the next crossfire.
Will RC priests who are chaplains in the various armies be stopped from praying for 'their side'? Will Protestant and Muslim chaplains be required to follow suit?

The world awaits ...

Discussion is locked

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I'll go the Pope one better.
Jul 22, 2007 3:58PM PDT

I believe that the United Nations should immediately intervene in Iraq. That the UN security council should convene and send troops too Iraq. The United States has achieved it's objectives. It has proofed that no weapons of mass destruction are present in Iraq. Saddam Hussein has been executed. And that a government has been established. It is time for troop withdrawals in Iraq with assistant if necessary.

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UN intervention?
Jul 22, 2007 5:03PM PDT

More soldiers to end a war? Didn't work in Bosnia or Sudan. And UN action depends on cooperation of member states and the country being occupied. So it didn't work in Rwanda, either. Lack of cooperation among the belligerents is a key element of war, I'm afraid.

The Pope is trying moral persuasion, and was very public about it. He picked a slow news day (not counting the British Open) and made general statements. 'End all war.' Now he has a chance to find an action in harmony with his words. As you've seen elsewhere here, he has very much authority over his own people, at least.

We'll see.

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It certainly will not end the way it's going.
Jul 22, 2007 5:46PM PDT

UN intervention did work in Bosnia, to some extent in the Sudan and recently (at least for now) between Israel and hamas. We are the enemy in Iraq, we insight those that hate us. A third party should intervene.

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You might be next.
Jul 22, 2007 6:25PM PDT
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To be drafted? Possibly.
Jul 24, 2007 7:12PM PDT

To kill Catholics? No. For instance:

"A Man Who Chose to Obey God; Awake!, 3/8/03
... Antonio Gargallo was a 19-year-old Spaniard who faced such a choice. The [1930s] civil war in Spain had already dragged on for about a year when he was called up for military service by General Franco's nationalist forces. The previous year, Antonio had been baptized as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and he had read the Scriptural counsel that God's servants should remain neutral and not even learn war. (Isaiah 2:4; John 17:16) Unwilling to become a soldier and kill his fellow countrymen, Antonio attempted to flee to France. But he was apprehended and taken to an army barracks in Jaca, Huesca, near the French border.
A military tribunal offered him a stark choice: Take up arms or be executed. [He was.]
[Footnote]
Antonio's letter [explaining his position and his faith in God], preserved for decades in Spanish military archives, never reached his [unbelieving] mother."

In Eritrea and Ethiopia, two neighbor countries long at war with each other, Witnesses are today incarcerated and killed on both sides for refusing to fight the other side.

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2/10/05: U.N. Sex Crimes in Congo
Jul 24, 2007 1:28PM PDT

Widespread allegations of sexual exploitation and abuse of Congolese women, boys and girls have been made against U.N. personnel who were sent to help and protect them -- despite a so-called zero tolerance policy touted by the United Nations toward such behavior.

The range of sexual abuse includes reported rapes of young Congolese girls by U.N. troops; an Internet pedophile ring run from Congo by Didier Bourguet, a senior U.N. official from France; a colonel from South Africa accused of molesting his teenage male translators; and estimates of hundreds of underage girls having babies fathered by U.N. soldiers who have been able to simply leave their children an


http://abcnews.go.com/2020/UnitedNations/story?id=489306&page=1

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Are you certain that RC Chaplains...
Jul 22, 2007 9:03PM PDT

and others pray for "their side"? That is not my impression. I thought they were supposed to pray for the souls of the soldiers in their charge.

Question: in WWII would it have been immoral to pray for the defeat of Nazi Germany, i.e., victory for the Allies?

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Yes. I am certain.
Jul 23, 2007 5:52PM PDT

"Immoral"?! It would have been treasonous for a German Lutheran to pray for the victory of the Allies. History shows that governments are always more concerned with treason than immorality. Your question is a good one but, sad to say, has been rendered irrelevant by the march of time. Happy

In several Allied countries- US, GB, Australia, Canada- it was illegal for Jehovah's Witnesses to preach neutrality in man's affairs. Many went to jail for this.

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There's a difference between preaching neutrality...
Jul 23, 2007 10:00PM PDT

and simply preaching/praying about other topics, such as salvation, etc.; whatever it is preachers preach about. Do Chaplains really preach/pray for victory over our adversaries? I don't know for a fact whether they do or not.

My point about WWII is that it might have been understandable for Chaplains on the Allied side to have preached for the defeat of the Axis in those days. I was not considering the German Chaplains, because one can assume that anything done by German Armed forces personnel was done under duress to a certain extent. And I suppose the same could be said for the Allies as well.

Since all religions oppose killing and war (or claim to) I would think the position of Chaplain would be a conflicted one.

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"whatever it is preachers preach about"
Jul 24, 2007 6:59PM PDT

We do, and now the Pope does, preach about the bible's message of peace, love, paradise, and other warm and fuzzy stuff. Salvation? To what? To all of the above. Otherwise, why bother?

Examples of "conflicted" are in my post, below.

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Still not clear on that...
Jul 25, 2007 12:35AM PDT

Preaching "the bible's message of peace, love, paradise, and other warm and fuzzy stuff" is not necessarily the same as preaching "neutrality", which I take to mean, "not fighting".

Clearly, if you are in the Army, fighting is part of the deal. Doesn't mean you are against peace.

Do Chaplains these days pray or urge that our side is victorious over the enemy, or do they pray about other things which are relevant to the soldiers?

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What is more relevant to a soldier than victory?
Jul 25, 2007 12:53PM PDT

What do you imagine the chaplains pray about? Whose pay are they in?

"fighting is part of the deal" And peace never is; the statesmen negotiate "peace", usually when one side has been atom-bombed into submission. The soldiers keep killing.
Example: "The bloodiest and most dangerous disputes today . . . are wrapped in religion," states the newspaper USA Today. "The standard tools of diplomacy- a willingness to compromise, for instance, and to forgive old grievances- can be more difficult to apply when combatants claim God is on their side," the paper adds. "That's true even when religion is more a tool used to mobilize support than the cause of a conflict, which may center on less-spiritual struggles over land or power." Religious differences even make it difficult to establish a temporary truce. An example is the recent warring in Kosovo. An Easter pause was considered but could not be implemented as the Easter dates for the Catholic and Orthodox celebrations differed. "In the end, there was no pause," says USA Today." Awake!, 3/22/03
It was easier for the "Christian" forces on each side to keep killing.

Clearly, if you are in the army, you are taking part in one side or the other, to the death. You are not neutral; you are not peaceful. The things that belong to God, particularly human life, you are rendering to your country's leaders. In contrast, when his life was on the line, Jesus told Pilate, "My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought (!) that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source." (John 18:36) And the well-known scriptures at Isaiah 2:2-4; 9:6, 7 are said by Jews to apply to the Messiah and by Christians to apply to Jesus. What do you find when you read them, peace, or war?
And as to war between Christians, I find this to be relevant; what do you think?
"If anyone makes the statement: "I love God," and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot be loving God, whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from [Jesus] that the one who loves God should be loving his brother also." (1 John 4:20,21)

To return to the Pope: All of the above are in his bible as well as mine. As "Vicar of Christ" he claims the same moral authority as Jesus, and is free therefore to turn the principles there into orders and directives to the men who acknowledge him as leader. Will he do so?

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What do you imagine the chaplains pray about?
Jul 25, 2007 1:32PM PDT

I don't know. I am asking and wondering.

They could be praying for the health and well-being of the men, their families, their relationships, their psychological steadiness, etc. Any number of things.

Maybe they are praying for "our side" to win over the enemy; maybe not. I don't know, and I don't assume they are. Maybe they don't assume that God is on "our side."

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FYI re: military chaplains
Jul 24, 2007 12:30AM PDT

This article comes from an Air Force Base, but applies to them all.


That means Dyess' chaplains are asked to know something about all of the religious beliefs represented on the base.

''We try to respect everyone's denomination or affiliation, whatever they are,'' said retired Lt. Col. Jerry Mueller, a Catholic priest who sometimes fills in at Dyess. ''From that standpoint, we're somewhat ahead of the outside world.''

Military chaplains aren't asked to violate their individual denominational backgrounds, but will facilitate things to make certain airmen have access to resources necessary to worship as they wish. That might include having a place to worship, or contact with others of their spiritual community.

"It's important for military chaplains to not focus too much on differences, either their own or those of individual airmen, said Capt. Marianne Keho.

You have to focus on the things we all have in common, rather than the things that separate you,'' she said.

Crawford said he has to know when it's proper to switch to his officer role or his chaplain role.

''If someone came to me from what I would regard as a group contrary to my own personal beliefs, I would need to go to my officer role and say: 'I'm here to help you. How can I do that'?'' he said. ''Personally, I might not think that was the way to go, but I'm sworn to protect the constitution of the United States and in doing so ensure that free expression of religion is carried out throughout the Air Force.''

''My job is to go into God-forsaken places and situations

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The measure of a man.
Jul 24, 2007 1:17AM PDT

Benedict seems to me to be an old school kind of guy. He has made several recent declarations that seem to be designed to leverage the church back into being a political player as of olden days. He seems to be intimidated by the legacy of his predecessor though, whose personality was in some ways bigger than the church.

I have to question his methodology however. Maybe his efforts are sincere but these declarations are somewhat heavy handed for such a cynical world as we live in. Commandments about automobiles, proclamations that the Catholic Church is the only true Christian church, and now saying that war is bad and we should end all wars? I'm not saying he needs to be as slick as a New York ad man but I will opine that he needs to bring a bit more of himself to his affirmations, and a bit more evidence that he understands the intricacies of the planet today.

I hope his words do have some effect, but if he is going to use the old school tactics of "the Holy Roman Church says do this"... then he is also going to need to reconcile some of the dichotomies of what the church is calling for today, versus some of the conduct the church has condoned in the past. Many wars have been fought in the churches name and the combatants blessed for their efforts. This "war" issue is just one example but it leaves me wondering, can old school style be reconciled with new agendas without the accusation of hypocrisy being raised?

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I am not a Catholic
Jul 24, 2007 1:34AM PDT

and only know what I do about Catholics was from dating a girl whose family was VERY catholic. I was quite surprised several years ago watching the process of electing a new pope. I had no idea it was mostly politicking. So I guess personal views and/or agendas are to be expected from a pope.

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Forgot to add
Jul 24, 2007 1:44AM PDT

Delusions of grandeur may also be involved for legacy building

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(NT) Interesting insight
Jul 24, 2007 2:14AM PDT
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There's that delusion word again.
Jul 24, 2007 11:54AM PDT

Did I spell that right?

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(NT) no separation between church and state/circa 2007
Jul 24, 2007 3:58PM PDT
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Old school? LOL! Knowledgable Catholics
Jul 24, 2007 7:31PM PDT

have already noticed this; maybe half are rejoicing and the other half are terrified. Happy

If a religious leader doesn't have solutions to intricacies that seem too simple, what else does he have? Those who are wholeheartedly a part of the intricacies should be furnishing the fancy solutions. The Pope and I (for different reasons) are looking to absolutes.

Non-Catholics may think that Benedict aspires to be the world's [benevolent] dictator; they may be right. I admit that I look to Jehovah for the same position, and that terrifies many. Happy

So, how would you do it?

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Ah, the problem with absolut
Jul 25, 2007 1:01AM PDT

Gives me a head ache if I drink too much of it.

Wink

I grew up with so many denominations pulling at my sleeve that critical examination of "establishment" religion brings out my college historian training... and highlights the contradictions between what many churches preach versus their past actions.

Benedict declares war is bad (neglecting to account for all the wars fought in the churches name or with it's blessing).

Benedict declares a step back from Vatican II - The church is The Church and the mysteries of it do not need to be simplified for the flock.

Benedict declare that there is no Christian Church but the Holy Roman Church (If he is right dr then you and I are in trouble). Happy

Is Benedict trying to consolidate the power of the church, reaffirm the old style Catholicism he apparently favored all along instead of the reforms of Vatican II, or taking the only approach a man who appears to be less personable than his predecessor can take? Is he depending on dogma and catechism to make up for charisma? I would be curious to know if he was critical of JP II for being bigger than the church in some ways. Does Benedict see the see as a leader or a steward?

What would I do? I'd change communion wafers over to pie... everybody loves pie, right? Happy

Luckily, the world will never, ever have to deal with the flip ranting of Pope Grim. If I offended any catholics here I apologize. Certainly didn't mean to.

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The Pope is old.
Jul 25, 2007 3:51PM PDT

And the qualifications for ascending to the post are minimal. You are a man, right?

Dan

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(NT) No results so far.
Jul 24, 2007 1:24PM PDT
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still enough folks to 'follow their leader'--where have all
Jul 24, 2007 4:04PM PDT

the flowers gone?

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I recognize your
Jul 25, 2007 3:11PM PDT

song reference but I'm not sure of your point.

Dan

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To whom it may concern:
Jul 24, 2007 6:48PM PDT

Here are some specific cases in which previous Popes had authority and opportunity in which to intervene.

W*, 1/15/81
Church and the Bomb
On the 35th anniversary of the atomic bombing at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Roman Catholic chaplain who served the airmen involved voiced strong misgivings. According to the Chicago "Tribune," priest George Zabelka "says he was 'brainwashed' by his church's silence and wholehearted cooperation with the U.S. military." The clergyman, now retired, reportedly declared that atomic bombing "happened in a world and to a Christian church that had 'asked for it'-by preparing the moral consciousness of humanity to justify the unthinkable."
Zabelka pointed out that Nagasaki had the largest Catholic population in Japan, and said: "One would have thought that I, as a Catholic priest, would have spoken out against the atomic bombing of nuns," since three orders of nuns were destroyed in the blast. He also observed: "One would have thought . . . as a minimal standard of Catholic morality, Catholics shouldn't bomb Catholic children. I didn't."

A, 1/19/1984 article excerpt, Many Religions-What Are Their Fruits?
Among more recent examples can be listed the violent outbreaks in the Indian state of Assam, in which Hindus battled Muslims; the ongoing war between Iran and Iraq, in which Shiite Muslims fight Sunni Muslims; the by now notorious conflict in Northern Ireland, in which Protestants slaughter Catholics and Catholics slaughter Protestants; the war and massacre in Lebanon, in which Christians, Jews and Muslims are entangled; and even the Falklands war, in which "army chaplains urged Argentine conscripts to fight to the death because it is God's will," according to the San Francisco Examiner.
This list by no means exhausts the current state of affairs, nor does it include the countless instances in the past of conflicts between nations and peoples fanned by religious fervor.

A, 7/22/1984 "I Started Out a Warbird but Ended Up a Dove"
... "If I drop a bomb on a city in southern Germany and a thousand people are killed," I asked the chaplain, "how many would be Catholic?"
"About 95 percent," he answered.
"So what right do I have to take the lives of 950 people who are of the same religion as we are?"
The priest replied: "We are fighting a just war."
"What makes a war just?" I asked.
"You are defending your country," he said.
"We are invading Italy and Germany," I said, puzzled. "Wouldn't they believe they were fighting the just war because they were the ones defending their homeland?"
"No," he answered. "We are fighting the just war."
That answer left me even more puzzled. I then asked the chaplain: "Why did the pope, the Italian bishops and priests bless the Italian troops to fight against us, and why are German priests now doing the same to their troops?" Patting me gently on the shoulder, he replied: "You must have faith, my son. The responsibility is not on our shoulders."

And a [probable] Anglican chaplain:
W, 9/1/57 The Business of a Chaplain
The book Bernard Shaw and Mrs. Patrick Campbell, Their Correspondence tells about a letter written by English actress Stella Campbell to the British playwright ... about her son's death [in] ... World War I. She mentions ... a letter from the chaplain that was "full of tragic gentleness and praise of my brave son." Shaw [replies]: "It is no use: I can't be sympathetic: these things simply make me furious. I want to swear. I do swear. Killed just because people are blasted fools. A chaplain, too, to say nice things about it. It is not his business to say nice things about it, but to shout that 'the voice of thy son's blood crieth unto God from the ground.' [Gen 4:10] To hell with your chaplain and his tragic gentleness! The next shell will perhaps blow him to bits; and some other chaplain will write such a nice letter to his mother."

*All are taken from features and news items in Watchtower or Awake!. Most Witnesses will have access to paper or electronic copies.
BTW the above are all from one electronic index page, covering only 1930-1985, with this heading: CHAPLAINS (See also Christendom; Clergy; Military Service)
There are 13 citations on just that page, covering all the major religions, but Lee Koo tells me the server is filling up.

I end the way I began: There are many posts SE by people of all parts of the religious spectrum desiring an end to war.
The incumbent Pope has expressed the same desire.
Here have been examples of those nominally under authority of Popes who have encouraged war, directly or tacitly.
With billions of people directly and adversely affected by wars, a billion of them the Pope's sheep, can he do any less than he did in Sunday's speech?
Can he do more?
His bible says, "Put not your trust in princes, in man, in whom there is not salvation." (Ps 146:3, NAB) Is he perhaps the exception, to whom peace-loving people can look for help?

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Confusion on this is to be expected.
Jul 25, 2007 3:28PM PDT

Any leanings away from war can only be considered a very recent development in the Judeo-Christian god's policies and far overshadowed by previous guidance.

Dan

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(NT) I don't see your point.
Jul 25, 2007 3:57PM PDT