Thank you for being a valued part of the CNET community. As of December 1, 2020, the forums are in read-only format. In early 2021, CNET Forums will no longer be available. We are grateful for the participation and advice you have provided to one another over the years.

Thanks,

CNET Support

General discussion

Poll: Would you consider buying a hybrid or alternative-fuel car?

May 2, 2007 6:46AM PDT

Would you consider buying a hybrid or alternative-fuel car?

-- Yes (Which one?)
-- No (Why not?)
-- Maybe someday (What's holding you back now?)
-- I already own a hybrid or alternative-fuel car (Which one, and what do you think of it?)

Discussion is locked

- Collapse -
not exactly right
May 9, 2007 4:24PM PDT

"But it's just the first 60K of all hybrid models the maker sells" is not quite accurate either. They started counting the 60K starting from 1/1/06. None of the hybrids sold starting before that date were counted. The first Priuses was delivered in the US in August 2000. An earlier version which was sold in Japan before began shipping in December 97. Prior to 1/1/06, the Prius was eligible for a $2000 tax deduction (not credit). There was no cap or phaseout on that. I'm not sure what date that started.

Per http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/tax_hybrid.shtml (click Phase Out & Termination", the "phase out starts beginning of second calendar quarter after 60,0000 vehicle mark reached." So, the full credit is available to some vehicles past the 60K mark from a given automaker.

- Collapse -
Well great but...
May 13, 2007 12:29PM PDT

I'm still against any tax cut, break, credit, whatever... that isn't permanent. And even then I'm against any selective tax breaks.

Taxes should be flat across the board. If I pay it, you should pay it, and everyone else should pay it. If I don't pay it, why should you pay it, and why should anyone else pay it?

If we truely believe that man is created equal, like our constitution says, why should anyone pay a tax less or more than anyone else for any reason?

Government is supposed to be "for the people" not "for the people who do what government wants".

- Collapse -
alternative-fuel car
May 8, 2007 3:36AM PDT

yes i would and i would choose the alternative-fuel car because that seems to be the future. With all the types of alternative-fuel being created and the fact that we will need to get away from gas all together not only because we are limited but also the cost.

- Collapse -
The next Dec 7th?
May 9, 2007 8:05AM PDT

Aaaahhh, you "Greenies" are suckers for buying into the Hybrid fantasy. Yes, you will save money in your "George Jetson" car, but where do all the batteries go after seven years? NIMBY!!!! Ethanol or E-85 works. Now some of you will say that you use less fossil fuels than E-85. Wrong!!! My Mercury Mountaineer uses 40% less fossil fuels than the Prius and pays the way for the taxes required to maintain our roads. You say there is not infrastructure for Ethanol? There is no infrastructure for imported oil. One tanker, off the coast blows 273,000 tons of NOx, sulfur-type emissions, not including particulate matter. We also do not need to send dollars overseas, instead of keeping it in our own pockets!!!

Do the Math!!!!

- Collapse -
Thank you
May 9, 2007 8:46AM PDT

I would like to start off by saying how thankful I am that you decided privilege us by shouting, calling us "Greenies", making fun of George Jetson (who probably never did anything to you) and making a statement that we should not put our used hybrid batteries in your backyard when; in all likelihood, we will be recycling them. Your excessive use of exclamation marks certainly proves to all of us how deep a thinker you are your comments definitely reflect how polite and considerate you are to others. Thank you again for sharing your opinions with us in a clear and concise manner.

- Collapse -
No opinion -- Just the facts
May 20, 2007 1:26AM PDT

Use of the roads without paying for it is causing some consternation among the various state legislatures. I thought about a Hybrid, but looked at the long term impacts vs immediate self-gratification. Maybe I should have said "Greedies" and not "Greenies." Maybe I'll get a hybrid Chevy Silverado?

About this recycling thing- I remember when lead-acid batteries were "recycled." Plastic emits PCB's and although you may be able to recover or "recycle" 25% of the content of batteries, imagione the energy it is going to take, going into recycling and DISPOSAL. We can dump this excess material in your backyard pool, right?

As far as your argument with food: At the present time, there is a bumper crop of corn and other items, like cheese whey, that can be converted into ethanol. Saw-grass or cellulose processing is being refined and is about two years out before mass-production kicks in. Two factors that have not been considered in these "studies" are the billions of tons of pollutants a single tanker emit over imported oil and the fact that methane, from steer manure, is providing the power to process ethanol.

About food? What about revenues to support road construction and maintenance? Let's face it, supply and demand is the basis of all economics. Next year, cotton farmers are swictching to corn and the corn that is generally used in processing, is meant for livestock, not people. As far as the rest of the world? Pres. Hugo Chavez and the Emirs have showed us the way we should go. So you keep sucking down their imported oil. Maybe you should bend-over too and not so they can kiss your behind?

So, the next time your "hyperdriving" down the HOV at 35 MPH, on the freeway, watch out for the car, SUV or Truck that coming up behind you! It is burning a renewable fuel, at a rate of 40% less fossil-fuel (which means less pollutants) than your "George Jetson" crunchable beer can. My advice? Get the heck out of the way and get in the "Driving Miss Daisy" lane, please!

"Greenies?" Not hardly!!! W.C. Fields said it best- "A sucker is born every minute." Oh yes, please forgive me for holding back!!!

- Collapse -
Not to mention
May 20, 2007 4:34AM PDT

All the methane that escapes the pile before it gets processed, the energy it takes to gather and transport the cow dung to generate the methane to produce the power, the dairy runoff that occurs when it rains or snows, washing tens of thousands of gallons of "green energy"
into our rivers and streams... mmmm sparklets anybody?

So maybe money should be put into battery research and better materials that pollute less and recycle easier? Maybe we can trade all that recycled materials to mexico for all that oil?

As for cheese whey, for god's sake hurry up on that, we have plants in CA polluting without a second thought. They have been pumping millions of gallons of untreated byproduct tainted water onto fields around their company and have seen nothing done, so they keep it up. Maybe if they thought they could make money with it, they might actually do the envronmentally responsible thing. It is a long shot I know.

Thanks for holding back, you inspired me to do the same!

- Collapse -
clearing up the facts
May 20, 2007 3:36PM PDT

Just a few things.

I don't believe that the majority of the batteries in use by hybrids are Lead/Acid, but are in fact NiMH batteries. I don't know a great deal about battery technology, but I have heard that Toyota has a fairly aggressive recycling campaign for their batteries. As other posters have pointed out, we have no way of knowing how completely they can recycle those batteries, but every little bit helps.

I don't know where you got the idea I'd want it dumped in my non-existent pool. Since it doesn't exist, please don't attempt to dump there.

I didn't discuss food, so I won't be the one addressing that point.

I believe the term is "HyperMiling".

I think the quote you're trying to come up with is "There's a sucker born every minute... and two to take 'em" which is commonly attributed to P.T. Barnum. W.C. Fields is known for saying, "Never give a sucker and even break".

Thanks for being as charming as ever.

- Collapse -
Wow you solved the problem
May 29, 2007 12:34AM PDT

If we dumped all the waste in the non existent pool....
It would also no longer exist right?


Hmmmm.....


Happy

- Collapse -
Not sure it was me but
May 29, 2007 12:38AM PDT

If your refering to my reference to lead acid storage batteries I was looking at storage batteries for the home portion of a solar at home installation, for the Plug in Hybrid. Correct me if I am wrong but those are generally Deep Cycle or AGM bats.

Yes it is expensive to put a home solar system on a roof, yes like all systems it has some drawbacks, but it is one step.

- Collapse -
My quick issues with Ethanol.
May 9, 2007 11:37AM PDT

A: Ethanol is corrosive. It will make your car's engine die faster.

B: Ethanol is a way for rich people to soak tax payers through government hand outs. One of the biggest suppliers of Ethanol crops is Ted Turner who recieves millions from the government for it.

C: Ethanol is chemically less energy rich. Meaning... it takes 3 gallons of Ethanol to equal 1 gallon of regular. This is why you do not see E-100, because people would see that a car that gets 30 mpg on regular, would get 10 mpg on E-100.

D: Ethanol is horribly expensive. It does not seem like it, but that's because our great and wonderful government props up the market for it. First, it's subsidized like I said above. People who make it, get paid to do so, and that offsets the true cost. Second, it's tax sheltered. Meaning, that full $1 per gallon in taxes your paying at the pump for regular, there is no tax on Ethanol. If there was, it would be nearly a dollar more for E-85.

E: Ethanol will cause food sources to have fuel prices. Not a good thing.

- Collapse -
Ethanol may not be the answer, but it's not THAT bad ...
May 9, 2007 12:58PM PDT

... a gallon of ethanol contains about 76k BTU's vs. about 116k BTU's for gasoline ... so gasoline has about 53% more energy than ethanol, not 200% as stated ...

In practice, a gasoline car will get about 35-40% better gas mileage than an E85 car ... a significant difference that should be understood, but it's not quite 3:1 ...

Ethanol is more conductive than gasoline, and therefore contributes to galvanic corrosion in gas tanks that are not designed and constructed with appropriate materials ... but it also burns cooler than gasoline, reducing the need for high-temp materials ...

Everything is a trade-off ...

Regards,
Greg

- Collapse -
You are correct!
May 12, 2007 2:10AM PDT

Yes regular gas has only 53% more BTUs, however because most engines are optimized for regular, and Ethanol has different burn characteristics, higher octane, cooler burn, all of these cause signicant loss of useable power, despite the gap in actual BTUs being smaller.

Maybe if an engine was designed and optimized for Ethanol, then perhaps the difference would not be so wide.

My 3 to 1 gallon ratio was in referance to E100, a 100% ethanol gallon.

Ethanol also has/had a tendency to wipe out internal engine componets. Specificaly Injectors and Oxygen sensors. Granted, it's been 6 years since I worked at the dealership, but I replaced a number of both for this reason. Perhaps things have changed since then, I do not know.

- Collapse -
E85 problems
May 9, 2007 4:07PM PDT

There are some problems that need be solved w/E85 to make it a viable large scale replacement for using pure to 90% gasoline (E10): lack of availability/supply in many parts of the US, the mileage penalty and cost.

I live in San Jose, CA. Per http://www.e85fuel.com/, there's a whopping *ONE* publicly accessible E85 station in the whole state, which happens to be the closest one to me. Even if I had a flex fuel vehicle, it's a 460 mile drive ONE way for me to get any. Do you think it makes any sense for me to drive 920 miles to buy E85?

BTW, the above station opened in 2003. Fast forward almost 4 years and there's no change except for one coming on June 21, 2007 that's 328.5 miles away!

E85 has less energy content (http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/ethanol-10-06/tests-of-ethanol-vs.-gasoline/1006_ethanol_test_1.htm got 10 mpg on E85 running an 07 Chevy Tahoe vs. 14 mpg w/gaosline), so E85 would need to be about 71% the cost of gasoline to make any sense for consumers to even buy.

Third, there's even debate on whether the energy output from ethanol is greater than the energy input into creating it. Let's assume there is a net gain... but we still have the above two problems.

There's plenty of infrastructure for gasoline retailing and shipping gasoline through existing pipelines. AFAIK, ethanol CANNOT be sent thru existing pipelines. That's what's meant by no infrastrucutre.

- Collapse -
SOLAR!!
May 9, 2007 2:18PM PDT

I might buy a hybrid, but Willie Nelson and his idea of corn (and other crops) is only a band-aid on the problem. It won't take long to deplete the land of nutrients and causee other problems to farmers. I'm sure this has already been pointed out. So I think most of the money and research should be poured into Solar energy, and how to find some way to store it. Even if we succeed in capturing solar energy, we will probably be deprived of all we need until GE or some other greedy corporation owns the sun.

troubador

- Collapse -
I am waiting for the Diesel cars - where are you?
May 23, 2007 11:12PM PDT

Portable power transportation is what gas offers to car engineering. Gas is extremely portable and relatively inexpensive to obtain. Diesel is in that same bag. VW had a diesel Rabbit that got a rated 51 mpg, 15 years ago.

Honda is reported to have a "clean diesel" and is selling it in Europe now. It has a mpg rating as good or better than the hybrids, is much larger, and takes a lot less energy to build batteries and recycle them.

Yet I am in the automotive business, working mostly with USA tier 3 sub-contractors, and sadly I don't hear a real buzz for diesels. No one has a good reason why not, except emissions which can be worked on. Yet every company I know that has switched to the diesel powered, Dodge Sprinter for their truck fleet has loved their performance (rated 22 mpg city and 28 highway) and reliability. I swear I have no connection with this vehicle or Dodge trucks that I know of, but it is just reality. Fed Ex, and UPS are switching in the NJ area to the Sprinter for these reasons. I am investigating the purchase of a Sprinter 15 passenger version for our church.

I would buy a diesel powered SUV or mini-van today if one were available. It would be worth an extra $2000 or so to me. I can't fit a Sprinter in my garage. Hybrids don't help my need for multiple all-in-one longer trips from NJ to Detroit, Indiana, Ohio, Illinois and Arkansas and return to NJ. Their mpg is the same on that trip as I have today.

- Collapse -
That Rabbit wont run like that dog won't hunt.
Dec 8, 2010 9:13AM PST

The "51 mpg rabbit" never got anywhere near that number in the real world of stop and go driving. More like mid 30's which really is pretty good for 15 years ago. It was all test track magic and marketing hype. My buddy had one, and was all excited to go out and get a hundred miles out of two gallons of gas. Let's suffice to say he would have had to push it the last 30 miles. Great car, lots of fun to drive. I Love Diesel, want to convert my diesel F-250 to bio fuel, but I need to wait till the warranty expires cause it will void it.

- Collapse -
Hybrid - NO! Alternative? - Whut fuel you talkin' about?
May 28, 2007 3:58AM PDT

Hybrid: Initial cost is too much for the amount of gasoline saved.

PLUS (what no one ever seems to want to talk about) -- how long does the hybrid's battery package last and how much does it cost to replace it when it dies? Proponents seem to dance around this question without a straight answer.

Greens, who have a cow over the appropriate disposal of a little old AAA flashlight battery are silent about the disposal and replacement of the hybrid's massive, high voltage batteries. Why?

What effect does cold (or hot) weather have on the efficiency as well as the life of the hybrid's batteries (for those of us who don't live in California)?

I suspect the reason for the silence is because an honest answer to the questions would kill all interest in buying such a car, not to mention the economic incentive. But, I'm always ready to learn if I'm wrong.

- Collapse -
I'm glad you're ready to learn ...
May 28, 2007 12:05PM PDT

... because you have apparently bought into some of the anti-hybrid hype ... please allow me to respond to your questions and comments, and I applaud you keeping an open mind ...

At least some of the hybrids available today will in fact pay for the extra expense with fuel usage savings ... the general rule of thumb for a Prius is 4-5 years ... folks that say otherwise are either using extreme examples (e.g., some of the pickup or SUV hybrids use the electric motor more for HP, not fuel savings) or they aren't comparing apples to apples (e.g., they compare a loaded Prius with a base-model Civic) ... and when you toss in a tax credit, the financial equation works out just fine, thank you very much.

The reason you don't hear folks talking about limited battery life is because the hybrids have only been around about 8 years in the US, so the first batches of batteries are just now coming out of warranty ... but you can bet if there had been a bunch of warranty replacements that the manufacturers would have been pushing the battery makers to improve them a lot over the years ...

The NiMH batteries in a hybrid are recycled, not disposed of ... almost nothing is wasted.

I can't speak specifically to your final question, but I know folks from MN to AZ who have hybrids and I haven't heard them complaining about cold or hot weather performance.

As you can see if you read this entire thread, hybrids are definitely not for everyone ... and that's okay for me, because otherwise I would still be waiting for the supply to catch up so I could buy one without paying sticker (or more) ...

Regards,
Greg

- Collapse -
you've bought into a lot of the anti-hybrid FUD
May 28, 2007 4:14PM PDT

You've bought into a lot of the anti-hybrid FUD as someone else points out.

See below regarding the costs.
http://forums.cnet.com/5208-7811_102-0.html?forumID=78&threadID=246092&messageID=2491286#2491286
http://forums.cnet.com/5208-7811_102-0.html?forumID=78&threadID=246092&messageID=2492056#2492056

Besides whether or not it saves any money, why does it always have to be about that? How much did a V8 engine save you? How about a sunroof? They're features and you'll never seen any articles about how V8s and sunroofs save $ because they don't. Think about hybrids as having another technology that puts out less pollution (see http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm), recaptures and repurposes energy that would otherwise be waste heat and brake test and uses less oil, most of which comes from foreign countries (some of them in unstable regions or who don't like us).

As for the HV battery, it is warranted for 10 years/150K miles on the Prius and Civic hybrid in CA and a couple states in the NE. The batteries are recycled. See http://www.toyota.com/about/environment/technology/2004/hybrid.html. If you've got some to dispose of, Toyota will give you a $200 bounty.

http://john1701a.com/prius/owners/jesse3.htm is at 285K miles on his previous gen Prius on the original battery. http://www.hybridcars.com/blogs/taxi put 200K miles on his previous gen Prius in 25 months. Per http://online.wsj.com/public/article/PR-CO-20070522-905404-KO8A18uhP7irzpZE6Bd6X5w2rPc_20070522.html?mod=wsjcrmain and http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/04/03/ford-escape-hybrid-taxis-top-175-000-miles/, 18 Ford Escape hybrids (they use Sanyo batteries vs. Panasonic/Matsushita batts on Toyotas) have exceeded 175K miles within 2 years.

- Collapse -
cold
May 29, 2007 1:29AM PDT

In terms of hot and cold efficiency, from what I've read, it depends on the situation.

Concerning the Honda Civic Hybrid (HCH); some first generation HCH owners have said that the '06 and '07 model hybrids take longer to engage all of their energy saving technology than the previous generation. I am not sure, but I believe it is because some of the tech won't engage until the engine is sufficiently warm. It seems that Honda has made some software changes from the first generation HCHs to the current. This would lead to reduced fuel economy in comparison to the older model for shorter duration trips. Considering that all cars (correct me if I'm wrong) have worse gas mileage before the engine is warm, this seems not uncommon.

It stands to reason that if the weather is sufficiently cold, it might delay a hybrid's engine from warming up as quickly as a larger more powerful engine that doesn't share part of it's burden with an electric motor. I have read some reviews of the '06 HCH on Cnet that suggest it does get poorer gas mileage during the cold winter months, but I have not experienced it personally, yet.

Another thing to consider would be the possibility that the battery might be less efficient in extreme cold. Can someone weigh in with some information on cold and it's effect on battery efficiency?

- Collapse -
gas engine temperature
May 29, 2007 2:10AM PDT

yes, the hybrids do try to keep the engine "warmed up" to increase overall fuel economy, and of course there are always trade-offs, which in this case would include efficiency on short trips in cold weather ...

battery efficiency definitely varies with temperature ... in fact, batteries seem to prefer temperature ranges quite similar to those preferred by humans, so my understanding is that most hybrids circulate cabin air through their battery compartments to help maintain that efficiency as best they can ...

- Collapse -
LOVE our Prius!!!
Jul 6, 2007 3:05PM PDT

When we ordered our 2004 Toyota Prius in the fall of 2003, we were willing to make some compromises to drive a car that would have very low polluting emissions and excellent fuel economy. When our Prius arrived, we discovered that we had made no compromises at all. Our Prius is roomy, comfortable, peppy, and more fun to drive than any other car we have ever owned.

Now that we have had our Prius for four years, and it has taken us through four Canadian winters, it still drives like new and achieves the same great fuel economy as when it was brand new. We love our Prius, and we could not be happier with our choice of hybrid vehicle. I'd buy another Prius in a minute, except for the fact that ours is still running like new and keeping us happy. Based on our positive early-adopter experience, many of our friends and family now want to buy a Prius.

An extra bonus is that we have met so many friendly Prius owners (on the road and on discussion groups).

- Collapse -
Yes, I would, and indeed I did
Jul 8, 2007 8:27AM PDT

I've got the Lexus RX400h. My wife and I are painfully luxury-minded, but we want to live green as well. She wanted an SUV in about the RX's size range, so it was down to it and its mainstream Toyota sibling, the Highlander hybrid limited. The Lexus won out for its more solid build and more luxurious interior.

The hybrid version of the RX at the dealership was a lot fewer in numbers than the RX350. In choosing a model, they had a white one there, a black one due to arrive in a few days, and a silver one that might have been available if delivered from the Northeast. That was it for the next three or four months. (We got the black one.) The demand is obviously there; why aren't they making more luxury hybrids?

Right now, Lexus is the only luxury brand making hybrids. They're rolling out a hybrid version of each of their models about one a year, with hybrid models right now of the RX, GS, and LS. Given the performance boosts alone, I'm really surprised that even Toyota is dragging its feet in offering a hybrid sports car--sure, they've got great concept cars like the Volta, but there's no hybrid sports cars on any of the dealer's lots. (The Lexus GS460h comes close, but it's more a comfy sedan that happens to perform. For the same money, sports car enthusiasts will gravitate instead towards a Corvette Z06 or an entry level Porsche.) There's also a lot of luxury-minded people who want to live green but don't want to give up leather interiors, roomy cabins, or V10 engines. Why can't Cadillac, Lincoln, Infiniti, Mercedes, and the like see the untapped potential here?

I'm also hoping that Toyota will give Lexus more emphasis on manufacturing hybrid models in higher volume, so we can see more of them on the road.

- Collapse -
Waiting for Hybrid diesels or next gen Tech
Feb 23, 2008 2:31AM PST

My 15 year old automatic Alfa Romeo sedans and Spider (convertible) are in the 25+ mpg Highway mileage range. They're fun to drive and paid for and I can maintain them for much less than a car payment.

I'm hoping to see in the next two or so years major advances in efficiency by all the manufacturers. If VW had a TDI EOS now I'd look at it. If I had to buy a car this year, I'd look at the Mercedes C-class diesel (Hint, Hint, when will the blu-tech trickle down to the C class?) or the Jag that is rumored to be coming.

But for now, I'm in a wait see mode.

- Collapse -
Hybrids are slowly getting better. Ethanol is not the answer
Feb 23, 2008 2:40AM PST

I must admit that trying a Ford Escape did impress me with how good some things are coming along, it does drive in the batt mode. I don't expect to put my hands in my pocket for one anytime soon. A diesel hybrid that uses capacitors, and not batteries, would probably do it for me.Ethanol made from corn, especially using fertilizer made from Natural gas is just plain stupid. Ethanol made from wood waste is OK. Propane is a very clean burning fuel but the kits are getting scarcer. Still on the sidelines for now. John.

- Collapse -
Maybe someday...And the only thing holding me back is PRICE.
Feb 23, 2008 8:39PM PST

---Till the day a hybrid's prices come down to a gasoline car level, I can't even think of buying one. They are still ridiculously expensive (I understand that millions, if not billions of $ have gone into their R&D, but still, the prices look steep. At most I can think of paying a 25% premium to a similarly sized gasoline car, considering the fuel savings (not to mention the environmental savings)...

---I find the talk of 'performance' of hybrids amusing.
What's the point in a car being capable of doing 0-100 mph in 10 seconds, if the nearest car is just 10 metres ahead of you!!!

Thanks, 'Dexter'.

- Collapse -
Hybrid? Maybe someday.
Mar 5, 2008 4:52PM PST

I live in Hawaii where regular gas cost $3.919 a gallon. The wife and I were looking at the Toyota Highlander Hybrid. We looked at the price differece between the Highlander Limited and Hybrid, then did the math. If we were to purchase the more expensive Hybrid model, it would take us 10 years to make up the difference in gas savings. That was ridiculous. We probably wouldn't keep it 10 years! It would be cheaper for us to purchase the Limited with lower mpg, than get the Hybrid. Until prices for Hybrid vehicles come down, we will stick to non-hybrid models.

- Collapse -
I already own a hybrid or alternative-fuel car (Which one,
Nov 24, 2008 2:07AM PST

I currently own a Prius. This is my second one. I personally think they are great vehicles. I also own a Corvette and a Mercedes. I think they're all great ,just in they're own way.

- Collapse -
hybrid or alternative-fuel car
Nov 24, 2008 4:35AM PST

I would not consider buying a hybrid or alternative fuel car. The most popular hybrid has 30 lbs of nickel in the battery pack. Massive environmental damage is done extracting Ni from the earth. Some of those mines are now being closed (good luck replacing the batteries). The next generation batteries are Lithium Ion. There is not enough Lithium in the earth to build out the contemplated fleet of electric cars (see Forbes special issue on energy). Building out a significant number of plug-in cars requires a new electric grid and many new coal fired power plants. Clean coal is a fantasy. Alternative fuels: Ethanol is the worst possible motor fuel. I think most people understand the reasons by now. Unfortunately, gasoline has the highest energy density. We are stuck with it until we run out.