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General discussion

Poll: Would you consider buying a hybrid or alternative-fuel car?

May 2, 2007 6:46AM PDT

Would you consider buying a hybrid or alternative-fuel car?

-- Yes (Which one?)
-- No (Why not?)
-- Maybe someday (What's holding you back now?)
-- I already own a hybrid or alternative-fuel car (Which one, and what do you think of it?)

Discussion is locked

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Hybrid maybe, Alt Fuel No
May 3, 2007 3:22AM PDT

I am considering a hybrid. The problem, for the same price you can really move up in car type/class for the same price. I'm not a hardcore environmentalist so that aspect would not be a consideration smf have no bearing on my purchase decision. Alt fuel seems not practical at this time

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YES ! ! ! Toyota Highlander Hybrid is the BEST
May 3, 2007 3:26AM PDT

After researching every manufacturer and hybrid process for months, I bought a 2006 Toyota Highlander Hybrid in February of 2006. I could not have made a better choice ! ! Our true hybrid averages about 29.5 mpg and if we are super conscientious, 32 mpg. This car/truck has beat every expectation and out performs the rest. We put 38,000 miles on our first year and have looked at adding a second Highlander Hybrid to our family. So versatile and yet so fuel savvy for a SUV, we use it in our business everyday. I am glad I made the hybrid choice and will do it again. If we could use cars in our business, I would by hybrid cars as well.

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Cost of ownership?
May 3, 2007 6:05AM PDT

So, how much did you pay for the Highlander and how much do you save in gas mileage? Will you recoup the extra c ost of the vehicle in a reasonable amount of time or will you have to pay it off faster or keep it longer than usual to do so? Just honestly curious...

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Greasy Rider Documentary - Alt fuels
May 3, 2007 4:18AM PDT
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Toyota Prius is great!
May 3, 2007 4:23AM PDT

I went from a 2004 "Pacifica" SUV to my Prius. I have a 2005 black Prius with the #6 package. This car has traction control,GPS,bluetooth,stability control,and much more.
I get 48 mpg on average. I have taken numerous trips from Florida to the mountains and I zip right along at 75-80 with no problems at all.
The gas motor is very efficient and the electric motor is 67hp and produces 295/ft lbs of torgue.
Toyota is so far ahead of the game. They make the hybrids in the SUV's
and luxury cars.
We will never get to where we need to be as long as people like the "corvette lady" have the attitude that if they want it they should have it. I can pretty much afford to buy any car I like and I will buy another hybrid.

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Would not buy a hybrid.
May 3, 2007 5:11AM PDT

Dollar savings of fuel is outwayed by extra charge for hybrid of same gas powered vehicle. The efficiency isn't there yet as it is with buying a high efficiency furnace which takes 3-4 years to recoup the extra cost. By the time you get to that point you need a new vehicle.

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perhaps, perhaps not.
May 3, 2007 5:30PM PDT

It is true that current estimates suggest 4-5 years to recoup extra cost, but gasoline prices are going up all the time (or at least it seems that way) so the recoup period could end up being a bit less that originally expected.

As for buying a new car after five years, I don't know about that. In my family, we seem to drive our cars a bit longer than that.
I drove my last car until the engine needed replacing and it lasted 7 years. A relative is driving around an 8 year old Volvo. God willing, it will last at least one more year. My current civic hybrid; well, I hope it will last at least 8 years or more (hoping for 10). According to Honda, the engine won't need tuning till the mileage gets to 6 digits.

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No (Too Expensive)
May 3, 2007 6:02AM PDT

Right now hybrid vehicals are too expensinve. Even though the fuel mialage is great, the money you save isn't eneugh to pay for the extra that went twards the hybid in the 1st place. Untill hybrid cars get cheaper I'm sticking with the standard.

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Too Expensive
May 4, 2007 9:43AM PDT

I dont know where you get off saying they are too expensive. The Toyota Camry Hybrid can be purchased for a bit more than $25,000 for the base model which is very well equiped. Mileage on mine is consistantly averaging 40.1 mpg since last July in warm climate. The database on greenhybrid.com has averaged 37.0 mpg for all users even thruout the winter months.

As for price comparison the Camry hybrid is only about $1200 more than a similiar equiped 4 cylinder XLE with exception of reclining rear seat, the battery pack will last the life of the car (Toyota has yet to replace one under normal use).

If everybody drove one we would be buying fuel from the Arabs or the Venezuela dictator who owns Citgo!!

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Already Own a Hybrid
May 3, 2007 6:12AM PDT

We bought a 2005 Toyota Prius in July 2005 instead of a minivan. We love it. It fits the family of five comfortably. Its electronics fascinates my wife's and my engineering brains. It gets at least 45 miles per gallon on average when doing highway miles and better than 50 miles per gallon combined in town and highway miles. We use this car much more than the standard engine car (a 2002 Dodge Intrepid). We have over 38,000 miles on it so far. We found that the Honda Accord hybrid was a V-6 engine with the best EPA estimate of only ~30 mpg for >$30,000. The Honda Civic was too small. We also found out that, at the time, Honda licensed a previous version of the Toyota Hybrid technology.

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Very Interesting.....
May 3, 2007 7:30AM PDT

I really can't see anyone 6 feet tall being comfortable in a Prius and other hybrids. Then spend the money for them and really get no return because they don't nor will they ever last as long as a Diesel engine. PLUS, have one break down and see what kind of price tag that has.
It's great that these little one ton cars get 29-40 MPG isn't it? Well, not really because like i've said in a previous post, i have a 3500 Dodge 4wd Quad cab p/u and "TOWING" i get no less than 19MPG (although average 22-24MPG), but in regular driving in get into high 20MPG's consistantly....and that's with a 10,000+ GVWR. Another interesting fact.....my old Dodge 2500 Diesel 4 door 4wd P/U was getting over 30MPG, but was also a few thousand lb lighter and went 252,000 still running strong when i traded it in.

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Continuation of my post above
May 3, 2007 7:52AM PDT

Just mto make clear.....I do not run ANY diesel fuel in my trucks and I have always/only ran BIO Diesel. 250k all on BIO Diesel Happy

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It can't all be about money ... or it will never happen ...
May 3, 2007 7:07AM PDT

Those who would bad-mouth a hybrid because it won't pay for itself quickly are completely missing the point. Using less gas is a good thing, and I happen to believe that it's okay to do a good thing even if you don't get a financial reward for doing it ...

I also agree with some other posters that there are many other ways for us to save energy, but such discussions are outside the scope of this thread (and this forum, for that matter) ...

Regards,
Greg

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Sorry, it's not a "good thing"
May 4, 2007 11:29AM PDT

What makes using less gas a "good thing"? Because you say so? Or because someone else says so? Well sorry, I'm not going to do something just so I can meet someone elses arbitrary standard, that way someone else can think I did a 'good thing'. Using less or more gas is not 'good' or 'bad'. I just means I spent more, or spent less.

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Heh heh heh ... you ARE joking, right?
May 4, 2007 2:58PM PDT

... and if you're not joking, then you're obviously just trying to bait me into a senseless argument ... but I'm not biting ...

Regards,
Greg

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Not at all.
May 5, 2007 7:55AM PDT

Why should I bow down to your standard of what is "good"?

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I own a 2001 Prius
May 3, 2007 7:10AM PDT

I am extremely happy with it. I have averaged 52-55mpg consistently since day one. If anything, I think the manufacturers namely Toyota blew it when they came out with the second generation hybrid drives. The vehicles were too big, expensive, and they were going for more "Power". I guess they didn't survey me. Yes, the batteries will be a problem in a few years as far as replacement costs and disposal of the dead ones. I am approaching 90,000 miles and I still have the original batteries.

I would like to purchase an all electric vehicle, but I guess the money is in bulding "sexy, powerful" cars like the Tesla. What a waste. On the surface the Phoenix SUT (sport utility truck) has promise. It seems a bit pricey, but they're the ones taking the risks - not GM, Chrysler, or Ford. Why can't someone build a small, inexpensive comuting vehicle that can go 50-100 miles between charges. I think they'd sell a bunch.

I just don't thing Hydroden is going to be feasable - Totally new fueling infrastructure, storage technology is still insufficient, Hydrogen is dangerous!

Bio Fuels - stop gap. Look at the prce of products made from corn. They're startting to rise quite rapidly because the demand for corn is rising. Burn down/bulldoze remaining forests and plant corn. That's a bright idea. Bio-Waste seems the direction to go.

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Oh Yes!!!
May 3, 2007 7:15AM PDT

I would buy what ever promises me 3X more mileage than I get now becasue I am paying 3X more than I should (atleast).

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Not anytime soon
May 3, 2007 8:21AM PDT

While 60 mpg looks great on paper, keep in mind your paying several thousand dollars more for the hybrid - probably more then you will save on gas.

I will consider buying a hybrid as soon as prices are comparable to normal vehicles, which probably won't happen soon.

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Larger hybrids / using garbage for fuel
May 3, 2007 8:23AM PDT

I would buy a hybrid if they made them into mid-sized rather than the dinky small safety hazard sized cars. I love my Buick LeSabre and I'm waiting for something a little bigger where the steering wheel isn't in my face and I don't have to crumple myself into a ball to get into the drivers seat.
I recalled hearing about a method to convert garbage to fuel your car. Since garbage is something they usually have to burn to dispose of why isn't more research going into converting garbage to fuel?

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larger cars
May 3, 2007 4:23PM PDT

While I am not sure exactly how big is big enough in terms of an ideal car for you, I have seen several SUVs that not come standard with a hybrid engine. I know Lexus and Ford make them, but if you are set on a larger sedan than the Prius or Civic, then you might want to consider the Nissan Altima Hybrid or the Toyota Camry Hybrid. Both are family size sedans and get fairly good gas mileage for a good size car. I'm not sure, but I think the Camry gets 34 mpg and uses the same Hybrid Synergy System that the Prius uses. Though I have never driven one, several websites list the Camry as their top pick for this year. I'm sure you can find information here at CNET or at cars.com.

As a side note, I drive a Honda Civic Hybrid, and am not employed by any car or car related company. Thank you.

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Math people, do some math.
May 3, 2007 8:25AM PDT

Let look at the numbers. I'm barring the Insight because it's a two seater, and the civic has an amazing thing called a trunk with cargo space.

Top of the line, best gas mileage hybrid: Toyota Prius
Top of the line, best gas mileage non-hybrid: Honda Civic

Prius MSRP $22,175 5yr Cost of Ownership $34,908
Civic MSRP $15,810 5yr Cost of Ownership $29,532

Prius costs $6,365 more to buy, and $5,376 more to own.
So your going to pay $11,741 more for what exactly? Let's look:

Prius estimated yearly fuel cost $466.
Civic estimated yearly fuel cost $635.
So your going to spend $11,741 for a hybrid, in order to save $169 a year in gas. This is called "penny wise, dollar stupid".

In order for you to 'save' more money in a hybrid, than me in a non-hybrid, you would have to own your car for 70 years.

You can do the math with any hybrid, comparing it to any non-hybrid high gas mileage car, and the numbers come out the same. Always remember cost of ownership. High tech, means high price repairs. You can't get an independent garage to work on most hybrids, so be ready for dealership prices.

The only place I can see a hybrid is with a travelling saleman or some job that requires tons of road time a year. And even then, a VW TDI has been known to get 55 mpg, so likely the cheaper buy and ownership cost will still make the diesel a better move money wise. Also diesel is normally cheaper than regular. The formulation changed recently so prices are messed, but they should fall back down to a little below regular.

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Okay, so it's not a but money maker, but ...
May 3, 2007 9:02AM PDT

I agree that new technologies will never take off until they are cheaper for people to buy, but if someone doesn't start making some unselfish decisions then we're not going to get anywhere ...

TCO includes the purchase price ... so with that in mind, and using your two example cars, the Prius costs $6300 more to buy, but only $5400 more to own for 5 years, because it will use less gas during those five years ... and if we actually compared similarly-appointed vehicles, the numbers would be much closer, and might even change the end result after five years ...

And here's some real math for all of us to try on for size ... every American who buys a hybrid instead of a regular gas-engine car (or who saves, say, 100 gallons of gas in any way they wish) will reduce the amount of oil that must be imported into the U.S. by about 5 barrels ... and there are, what, 15 million new cars sold every year? ... and perhaps 6-8 times that many used cars running around? ... so the math could add up in a hurry if we would all look at the big picture ...

Regards,
Greg

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So what's it about then?
May 4, 2007 3:49AM PDT

First of all, no is going to start making unselfish decisions. In fact most of the big companies are not making hybrids in order to save gas, they are doing so to collect on the government cash cow of rebates and tax incentives. Further, most of the people who support hybrid publically, have invested interest in towing the corporate line. The only reason GM built an electric car is because the government was dumping tax payer money on them. As soon as the cash flow stopped, they killed the project. It wasn't economical without government pumping our money into it.

That said, 5 year cost of ownership, as far as I know does not include purchase price. I don't remember saying "total cost of ownership" if I did, that was in error. I can't see my post atm.

However, doing the math, at $166 in fuel saving a year, at $6300 more up front cost, still requires you to own the car for 38 years. Sorry... you going to have to do much better.

And this final part is the most amazing to me. You are NUTS if you think buying a hybrid is going to 'save' even ONE barrel of imported oil. NUTS! Do you have ANY idea how many barrels of oil have to be used to make a hybrid, MORE than a normal car? Further, do you realize that gasoline is one of millions of products from oil? I am taking a look at the big picture, and that isn't going to work.

If you want to stop importing oil, we need to get the oil in our OWN LAND, then we won't have to import it. The largest untapped supply of oil in the WORLD... is in our country.

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Poll: Would you consider buying a hybrid or alternative-fuel
May 3, 2007 10:25AM PDT

I would not buy a hybrid vehicle because their is no need for them! People should buy motorcycles if they are truely trying to save fuel and buy a Harley Davidson because its 110% Americanism! Also I agree with a past posting that automatic transmissions are not the way to go, standard transmissions are!

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You're crazy!
May 3, 2007 1:06PM PDT

As long as motorcyclists have their own medical insurance and don't expect the government to pay to have their brains put back together.

Why anyone would risk their lives with all those cellphone toting, suv driving soccer moms out there is beyond me. Deathwish?

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Gas users=Terrorist supporters/Polluters/Baby Killers (j/k)
May 3, 2007 1:00PM PDT

If your driving a car that burns gasoline-hybrid or not-your part of the Iraqi/Iran/Kooky Venezuela leader/polluting/bankrolling Halliburton, exxonmobile et al. problem.

Drive an all electric rig or drive a diesel and fuel it with biodiesel.

Remember, if you're burning gas, you're part of the problem.

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You are so full of it.
May 4, 2007 12:31PM PDT

A: I support Halliburton. They create jobs and build things we use and enjoy.

B: I support Iraq, and the free people thereof.

C: If we all drove an electric rig, we'd need oil to create the electricity to run it. Also the price of electricity would go up by alot.

D: If you support preventing us getting the oil in our own land, you support us importing it from terrorists.

E: If you come on here and flap your mouth and do nothing, you're part of the problem.

Finaly, Biodiesel. Biodiesel is a double edge sword. Let me make this clear, I like the technology, and I am for advancement in this area. However... there are side effects that we might want to consider. When food becomes fuel, it enters the fuel market. What does that mean to you and me? It means prices swings exactly like what we see with other fuels.

Brazil started instituting government sponsored ethanol from sugar cane for example. Now the price of sugar cane is very high and fluctuates with fuel prices. So if biodiesel is made with (random) corn oil, let's say, then do you want to pay $10 for your next ear of corn?

Again, I'm for biodiesel, but we need to be careful how it's implemented, because whatever we use for the source is going to double if not triple in price and go through the supply and demand rollercoaster effect.

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Not anytime soon
May 3, 2007 1:04PM PDT

Until more hybrids are introduced in vehicles I WANT to drive, I'm not the kind of guy who wants to drive a Civic or Prius, then I'll stick with gas cars. Toyota is on the right track with having hybrid Lexus' but in the mean time, I'd rather buy a diesel vehicle like a Mercedes E320 or ML320 diesel that gets much better torque while getting better gas mileage than their gas equivilents. What they should put a priority on is bringing cleaner low sulfer diesel fuel to the US like is availble in Europe.

Economically, I'd rather pay less up front for a car and then if I end up making up the difference great. If I sell the car before that happens I'm not the one out the difference.

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Hybrid are a nice transition point.
May 3, 2007 4:16PM PDT

Yes, I would buy a hybrid. In fact, I bought one less than two weeks ago. It is a Honda Civic Hybrid 2007 model.

Now, some people seem to have a slightly outdated view of modern hybrid technology. Current models do turn off the engine when stopped at a stoplight, they do not need to plugged in to charge, and the initial cost isn't terribly more than a regular internal combustion engine. As for miles per gallon, although it may vary from person to person, I get about 42+ miles per gallon overall and about 44+ on my most recent tank of gas. I should add that I haven't fully broken in the engine yet, so I do expect to gain a few more miles per gallon in the coming months and/or after my first oil change.

One thing I've noticed while driving a hybrid is that the real-time miles per gallon display has helped to make me a safer and more efficient driver. I can see, in real-time, what driving techniques give me the most savings and I am less inclined to speed while driving on the interstate. This seems to be common occurrence among Hybrid owners. However, do be careful about watching the road and not just the display.

While some people may scoff at the higher price of hybrids, it should be pointed out that if I were to buy a regular car, I'd probably have bought a comparably priced car or perhaps even a bit more expensive. As it is, I suppose I settled for a little bit less but since local gas prices are well over $3.00, I don't really regret it. Add in a federal tax credit of (I believe) $2,100 if you meet the deadline, and the initial cost seems even less offensive. I have yet to check if my state has any state tax incentives, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did. I have heard that California is allowing hybrid owners to use the HOV lanes. It wouldn't help me, but it seems like a nice incentive. Also in regard to money, it does seem that most hybrid sedans come equipped with a fairly high level of technology. I know that people say the Prius is like something out Star Trek, and that my Civic has amenities similar to the top of the line Civic EX line. That is one thing to consider when buying a hybrid, what kind of extra features do they include.

As gasoline prices are expected to rise to around $4.00 per gallon in the near future, I believe that I will come to appreciate my car's superb mileage even more. Strangely enough, the Prius hybrid gets even better mileage than my civic, but the civic fits my tastes better.