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General discussion

Poll: Would you consider buying a hybrid or alternative-fuel car?

May 2, 2007 6:46AM PDT

Would you consider buying a hybrid or alternative-fuel car?

-- Yes (Which one?)
-- No (Why not?)
-- Maybe someday (What's holding you back now?)
-- I already own a hybrid or alternative-fuel car (Which one, and what do you think of it?)

Discussion is locked

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hybrid safety
May 29, 2007 4:58AM PDT
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Would Not Consider
May 2, 2007 10:11PM PDT

In 1962 just before my discharge from the Army, our transportation battalion received a new Dodge two and a half ton Army vehicle for testing. It was supposed to operate on any fuel or mixture of fuels. As I had left before we were able to start the testing, I do not know whatever happened with it.

Since that time, I have researched to find any info on this and have never found same. I remember that Dodge had tested it before we received it with only great performance, as we were told.

The reason I would not consider an alternative vehicle, I do not trust big oil. I might buy a vehicle only to find in a couple of years my fuels needed would disappear through politics or who knows what with big oil. Also in 1953 when I was in training at a Sun Oil Company training station, it was reported there was invented a carburetor that obtained a hundred miles per gallon gasoline mark.
If so, how did it disappear?

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1953 -1962
May 2, 2007 10:34PM PDT

The 'Deuce-&-a-half' as we called in 1969 (Vietnam) was a standard-fare vehicle for the armed forces. I worked on them. The engine you are probably referring to was a diesel engine manufactured by Continental Engine Co. (Not related to the Lincoln Continental.) That engine was called a multi-fuel. Given it was built for combat area use, and different fuels very well could be in short supply, it had to be able to use various other fuels, including heating oil, gasoline, all of varing quality. That's what they were referring to.

As for the carburetor, everyone mentions it, but no one can ever produce so much as a photograph of one. Could be folklore. But think about it. I remember 1953 vintage cars. Most were six cylinder, with no pollution equipment. Few had air conditioning, power steering, power brakes, automatic transmissions, or any other luxuries, so there was little drain on the power produced. Couple that with point-type ignition, which could be greatly adjusted for advance timing, and it wasn't uncommon to be able to lean most engines fuel mixtures out considerably. I remember a 1958 Ford V8 I had that easily ran at about 30 miles per gallon; and that was a V8. Given that cars today are lighter in weight, have better tire design, and many are four cylinders with electronic ignition with computer analysis many times a second, I would certainly hope that 50mpg would be accomplished. Americans just need to get out of their humongous SUV's. There's no need for them. Congress even passed legislation years ago to declassify SUV's so they don't have to comply with EPA regs for mpg ratings. But the average American doesn't want to bothered with the details. Ignorance is bliss today. It'll go on until enough of their children have asthma, or lead poisoning, or worse, and the pollution chokes off various resources; then, and only then, will the powers to be do something. Some things don't change.

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Myth busters
May 5, 2007 7:50AM PDT

The fisher carb was a myth. There was some con-man that ran around claiming he made a carb that got 100 miles to the gallon, which is a joke. Anyway, he ran around for few years, and eventually most people figured out it was a scam because he never let anyone test it, or examine it. Somehow this dumb myth has stayed alive for years and years.

Further, GM came out with a 100 mpg car in the 80s. But of course in order to make it get that kind of mileage, it was made nearly completely of plastic. I death trap that would disintegrate on impact with a twig in the road. In order to meet safety standards, they would have had to redesign it, and likely not achieve even close to the same mpg. So they canned the project.

But no, the carb didn't disappear. It never existed.

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Maybe later when more alternative fuels are available
May 2, 2007 10:33PM PDT

I watched "Future Cars" on TDC/TSC and was intrigued by the number of great alternative cars out there. A couple in their infancy are a return to water and one that runs on compressed air. The one I am most interested in is Hydrogen - the only emission is water and an accident will NOT yeild a nuclear explosion. If I remember correctly, Holland has developed a hydrogen fuel pump that uses electrolysis to separate water into oxygen and hydrogen at the pump and can run on solar cells or standard electric power. That would be the icing on the cake. I am just waiting for the pumps to make it onto the world-wide scene and the cars to go more than 250 miles on a fillup.

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BIO DIESEL!!!!!!
May 2, 2007 10:46PM PDT

Unfortunately i see many times the thought of "diesel" is not what something everybody wants to deal with. The fact of the matter is while yes, it is more expensive, and to make more fuel economy (1 ton + trucks) you need to get rid of the factory components and put aftermarket on.
First though, my friends and i make OUR OWN BIO DIESEL for less than $1.00 per gallon! Second, and thanks to Gale Banks and his aftermarket Diesel engine products, our trucks (Dodge 3500 and Ford F350) get BETTER mileage than many gasoline vehicles....For again less than a buck!
So when people are ready to buy and produce BIO DIESEL, then demand better products on our Diesel engines, we all can get OVER 20MPG in a heavy duty Dodge 3500 4 door, 4WD pick up truck. When i'm light towing, a 35' boat does not render me under 19MPG either.

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Would you buy a hybrid or alternative-fuel car
May 2, 2007 10:59PM PDT

My answer to this is: maybe someday. I own a Ford Focus, 30 miles to the gallon avg mileage. It would not pay to switch at this time, since I just bought the vehicle last year. I do see a hybrid or perhaps hydrogen car in the future, but the price has to come down and the efficiency needs to increase. Where I live there is also very little in the way of dispensing facility for anything other than gasoline, or at best Natural Gas. There is a long way to go with these things, but it will happen.

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The original Alternative Fuel Vehicles
May 2, 2007 11:02PM PDT

Most people aren't focused on the first flex fuel vehicles, but diesels are the first flex fuel vehicles and they can use biodiesel with little to no modifications.

So my 2003 Ford Excursion with the 6.0 liter PowerStroke Turbo Diesel would be my alternative fuel vehicle. Boasting 19.4 MPG on the highway, that is amazing for any large truck, especially one that weighs 8000 pounds. I'll keep filling it with biodiesel whenever I can find it.

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Plugged-in hybrids are already possible! If i had the $$$...
May 2, 2007 11:14PM PDT

It makes me furious that the only people plugging in their hybrids (and getting insanely great mileage and an even better ecofootprint) are the MIT grads that know how to "HACK" them. Don't car companies hire MIT grads? I know Big Oil Desert Stormed the Whitehouse in January of 2001... but isn't this a do-able thing? I first read about hacked hybrids (maybe they should be called "hackbrids") back in early 2004.

Sadly - i just bought a used car. The $7K i had to spend was not going to get me so much as a _test_drive_ in a hybrid. I did get the best mileage i could, but i've been hoping "my next car will be a much more eco-friendly one" for at least 5 cars now!

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American Hybrid
May 2, 2007 11:28PM PDT

We bought a 2006 Mercury Mariner Hybrid and we love it. I don't understand why Ford doesn't advertise this vehicle more. BTW, the Ford hybrid system is licensed from Toyota, so mechanically, it's the same as the Prius. It is an excellent SUV and it's American!

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Water powered car!!!!!!
May 2, 2007 11:41PM PDT
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YES!!!!
May 2, 2007 11:48PM PDT

We own two hybrids. My wife has a Toyota Prius and I have the Highlander, both are Hybrids.

Would we do it again.... ABSOLUTELY

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Camry Hybrid looks good, but ...
May 3, 2007 12:10AM PDT

I have a standard Camry now, and it's a great car, so I know the quality will be good in their hybrid too. Where I am, I have to do mostly highway driving, so I know the savings will be less. Still when I am in the Big Smoke, hybrid will make a big difference.
Cost is also a factor, but the Canadian Gov't is providing a rebate which closes the gap to standard gas car a lot.
Around here, owning and SUV is becoming as socially irresponsible as smoking, but rural people really do need some kind of small SUV for winter driving and muddy roads, and I see there may be some hybrids coming.
Don't get me started on ethanol. Just the latest pork from the pork barrel for US farmers.
Perry B

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Hybrid and alcohol derivative are not good
May 3, 2007 12:24AM PDT

Why not? Simple! There are not fuel effiencet as suppose and there is not a serious study that actualy demonstrate that help the environment. This is just an opinion. Thank you for asking.

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Hybrid
May 3, 2007 12:30AM PDT

I really want a hybrid, but can't afford one. I'll be happy when they come down in price. I would be equally pleased with an alternative fuel car, if the alternative fuels were widely available. I drive cross country occasionally.

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It's about more than gas mileage
May 3, 2007 12:46AM PDT

We bought a new Honda Civic Hybrid in 2004 for my wife. The tax credits were certainly a part of the incentive, in addition to the expected improved gas mileage. An added bonus is not having to get a Smog test for registration renewal in California. I'll admit I was more impressed with the bells and whistles on the Prius, but we both agreed that the Prius design (with such restricted rear window visibility) bordered on being dangerous. They have since added on onboard rear camera to assist with backing up. We love the Civic Hybrid. Since the engine is always used for initial acceleration and the hybrid component for supplemental power, it feels like driving a conventional car. Gas mileage is impressive, including getting 50 on a trip from San Francisco to Los Angeles.

Last year I had to buy a new car for myself. I wanted something slightly larger than the Civic. I reconsidered the Prius, as well as the newly available Honda Accord Hybrid. Problem with the Accord is that the hybrid battery eliminates the fold-down rear seat option and that was a feature I needed. Ended up getting a VW Jetta GLI which I love. It's mileage is not as good as a Hybrid, but it is much better than the Volvo 850 it replaced so I still feel good.

Getting good gas mileage is certainly appealing but it is important to consider all of the qualities of the driving experience when selecting a car.

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Bought Toyota Camry Hybrid 2 months ago...
May 3, 2007 12:47AM PDT

I have driven my new Camry Hybrid about 2000 miles. I love it. I owned a Camry in 1989, and it was a good car. This new Camry is a fabulous car. I get 37 MPG consistently, with a combination of city and highway driving. I also drive more carefully because, instead of an RPM gauge (which is useless with automatic transmissions), the Camry has a variable, real time MPG gauge. It has become a game to keep the MPG as high as possible. The only downside--the car was too expensive--but as for the hybrid electric + gas engine, I couldn't be more satisfied.
Dan neunaber

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Current Hybrid or Electric cars don?t meet my needs
May 3, 2007 1:01AM PDT

I would love a hybrid car, but current versions are:
-Too expensive (Lexus, Tesla Roadster, Venturi Fetish)
-Too small (I barely fit into a Toyota Prius (drivers seat!), and bump my head when I move in my seat)
-Or just not existing yet (VentureOne)
-Oh and also, I am a student Silly (Poor)

Still, the technology of electric and hybrid vehicles are impressive.
I would love a silent vehicle, with a good to amazing fuel efficiency and superior acceleration (0-60mph in 4 seconds or less).
Most of these vehicles have top speeds of 100mph or so, but except when you live in or next door to Germany (150km Yay) You don?t need cars that can go much faster than that.

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Bought a Prius ... very happy
May 3, 2007 1:06AM PDT

Will it pay for itself? I hope not (because that means that gas prices have gone through the roof).

Is it the future of personal transport? Nope, it is only a step in the right direction. But waiting around for the "ultimate solution" is silly because it will never arrive and we'll just be burning more gas in the mean time. And most of the other existing and emerging technologies have just as many (if not more) drawbacks, which I will address in replies to other posts.

Am I saving the world? Nope, just a little gas.

Why a Prius? Because I like the Toyota hybrid system better than the others ... because the recent models have exhibited outstanding reliability ... because it was designed (almost) ground-up as a hybrid (not just a hybird system retrofitted into a non-aerodynamic body like almost every other hybrid except the Insight), yet it still has a back seat where I can sit comfortably ... and because it was (relatively) affordable.

Regards,
Greg

p.s., of course I kept my 4.7L Dakota when I bought the Prius, because sometimes a guy just needs to bring home a half-scoop of gravel or smoke some kid in his "souped-up" Civic Wink

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I own a 2004 Honda Civic Hybrid
May 3, 2007 1:09AM PDT

I own a 2004 Honda Civic Hybrid and love it. It now has just over 50,000 miles on it. I've tracked the mileage in a spreadsheet and have averaged just under 45 miles/gal in both city and freeway driving. In California, also, we can drive in the car pool lanes with only 1 person in the car.

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Hybrid Car
May 3, 2007 1:50AM PDT

Already bought a Prius (2005 new and now have 25000 miles) Roomy, power is suprising, cruise control holds set speed exactly - always - climate control is virtually perfect, all systems are electric - only connection to engine is the water pump - NO transmission - one gear - two automatic power sources - silent - incredible cruising speed and mileage. Would own two except I need omething to pull a small trailer. NO defects, so far. Wife gets 44 city and 51 road, I get 48 city and 53 road. Best ever? Downtown Atlanta traffic over 23 miles heavy traffic at 79 MPG, road trip on I-85 to Greenville at 67 MPH - 55 MPG. (75MPH gets us 51 MPG, 80 Gets us 48-49) All with cruise control and climate control.
Prius is about 3 years ahead of Honda and 10 or more years ahead of most carmakers in this field. It is the only FULL Hybrid made at present, but Honda is closing the gap quickly. Unless there is a drastic breakthrough in battery technology, this design (and those evolving quickly from Honda noteably) is the car of tomorrow.
Never thought I would own either a Toyota or a hybrid. Really glad I bought one. Will buy more in the future using the Toyota Synergy drive system. Technology is elegant. Pretty amazing the more you discover about it.

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"your actual mileage may vary"
May 3, 2007 2:09AM PDT

Our 2007 Prius is not doing quite that well ... and we're getting mileage that is more aligned with the EPA sticker (i.e., better in town than on the highway) ... we're averaging about 45-47mpg on the highway (~65-75mph, no headwind) and about 50-52mpg in traffic (alhtough we don't really have "traffic" here, at least not compared to Atlanta!) ... part of the problem might be the hills - it's very hilly around here ... or maybe it's just that the car hasn't finished training us yet ...

I agree with your comment about owning a Toyota ... we've mostly purchased American brands for many years, and we briefly considered the Mariner (because it uses the Toyota hybrid system), but opted for the tried-and-true Prius instead and we're very happy with it after about 3,000 miles ...

Regards,
Greg

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The REAL Energy Hogs
May 3, 2007 2:22AM PDT

Let's stop the hybrid nonsense...25 k for a vehicle that in 10 years or less will need $3000 worth of new batteries ( at today's prices)...we can reduce the monster engines available, make achievable mpg requirements, and seek truly efficient alternatives while we save on current use of resources.

NOW, if we REALLY want to save our resources...how much could we save if frivolous travel were reduced? Yeah, I know...we're not giving up our vacations, ski trips, etc.,...and I'm not giving up my full size pickup that's used for its intended purpose: work.

Check out the nightime satellite photos of any major city in the US: Nearly every skyscraper has nearly every light burning...while the buildings are empty...7 days per week....

We have 70,000 air flights worldwide every day...some half of those are domestic US flights, leaving every major city every few minutes, usually with plenty of empty seats, each carrying 10-25,000 gallons of JP4 (or such), burning 3-4,000 gph, at ticket prices that cause airlines to go bankrupt and seek bailout with taxpayer dollars in the name of "preserving our necessary transportation"...MANY pilots have seen their pensions evaporate, their pay cut in half, ad infinitum. Now we have the new monster Airbus carrying 68,000 gals of fuel!

QE II's Fuel Consumption: 18.05 tons per hour, or 433 tons per day (144,333 gals/day). Every day's operation would run 15,000 average SUV's for a day.

50 lines run more than 300 cruise ships whose discharge faces little or no regulations...yet personal watercraft must meet stringent discharge regs (as they should)...

A 2000-3000 passenger cruise ship can generate enormous waste...
145,000 - 211,000 gals/day of graywater
26,000 + gals/day of black water (sewage)
7000+ gals/day oily bilge water
227 tons of garbage & solid waste
22 tons of toxic waste

Example: The QE II stats (from their website, bragging about energy use):
QE2 is the fastest merchant ship in operation...The diesel electric system produces 130,000 hp, which is the most powerful propulsion plant of any merchant ship in the world. The 95 MW total power output is enough to light a city the size of Southampton.

Fresh Water: 1,852.0 tons
Laundry Water: 489.0 tons
Diesel Oil: 206.8 tons
Fuel Oil: 4,381.4 tons
Lubricating Oil: 335.7 tons
Ballast: 4,533.0 tons
Feed Water: 113.8 tons

9.5 million passengers boarded cruise ships in 20003...projected to be 22 million by 2010. Multiply that by the scary figures above...


It gets better...international health organizations have published data leading to the suspicion that wastewater from cruise ships (and other ships as well) may be a leading cause of red tide and shellfish toxins. 68 of 70 samples of treated wastewater from cruise ships exceeded acceptable fecal coliform and pathogen levels by 1000-10,000 times!

The air pollution generated these behemoths exceed that of 350,000 vehicles with levels of lead and sulphur byproducts 3,000 times that of gasoline. Now, on a 10 day cruise we're talking 3.5 million vehicles' worth of pollutants just so folks can gamble, drink and eat to excess while helping to destroy our environment. Note also that much of the income from these vessels goes to foreign lands.

Millions of square yds of delicate coral reefs have been destroyed by the anchors of cruise ships, and similarly harbors are seeing the destruction of eelgrass beds and other marine flora.

Some may argue about finite totals above, all of which were gleaned from internet sources. But nitpicking aside, the REAL energy hogs are the sacred cows listed that avoid attention while vehicle owners are castigated as sacrificial lambs.

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While I agree on most of your post
Jun 1, 2007 1:06AM PDT

Coral Reef thing bugs me. I have been in the Navy for 24 years so I think I know what I am talking about when I talk about anchors. I have taken well over cruise trips on several lines since retiring and I can not remember the last time I saw the anchor down in a coral area. When they are not able to dock, most cruise ships moor to a very large bouy or multiple ones, because it is easier, less destructive to the envronment and more secure. I am not saying it does not happen, I just wonder about the millions of square yards number.

A cruise ship that does anchor, (such as princess anchors off of Monterey CA and Catalina, Monterey is a sand and mud bottom and Catalina I have Dove hundreds of times and there is no coral, never has been. The ship has a set location they anchor at week after week, and they hit it within probably 200 feet any day they anchor. Yes this is only an example, but be careful of the numbers, they manytimes are based on assumptions that are convienent.

As to the other portions of your post, I agree that the waste water is a major issue but so is you own... and your CAT's. Flushable cat litter and the litter itself has been tied to problems in Califoria Sea Otters, which has cause many deaths. This is a desease that your CAT may have that does not bother it, but is passed thru treatment plants and into the marine envronment. There are lots of point source polutants out there, cruise ships are only one of many. I agree that Cruise ships are a huge waste of energy, and one that is extravagent. No argument there, but if you want to see what really kills coral, it is things like silt from logging, things like Calerpa Taxifolia that is wiping out the entire ecosystem of the Med, one pocket at a time. It was introduced accidentally at a site below the aquarium in Monneco (sp?) and has taken hold. It is spread by anchors and fishing gear redistributing even a small leaf of it. Turns the area into a waste land.

Sorry I got off topic, but understand numbers are whatever we want them to be.

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coral death
Jun 1, 2007 6:34AM PDT

there are millions of square k's per year of coral being destroyed, it's not cruise ships, it's draggers, the kind of nets that scallops are caught with. once a spot is dragged the recovery time can be measured in centuries.

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Funny, thought Draggers were a deep sea technique..
Dec 8, 2010 9:04AM PST

Since coral needs sunlight to grow, I was suprised to see that Draggers, a normally bottom only technique used in deep waters was a culprit. Interesting. Must tear up thier gear something awful to drag thru coral shallows and fill thier scallop buckets with useless debris. Maybe we should send em GPS/Chartplotters to keep em out of the shallows.

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Hybrid Vehicals
May 3, 2007 2:29AM PDT

I'd buy one in a heartbeat, my only problem is I drive a full size van because of a spinal cord injury that has me in a power wheelchair so some sort of van would meet my needs much better.

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I would only buy a hydrogen generating vehicle
May 3, 2007 2:36AM PDT

I won't buy a hybrid unless it has on board hydrogen generation capability. I am currently using a hydrogen generator in my SUV and it actually works. Not enough to power it completely but it DOES augment my fuel supply. If there was a way to make enough hydrogen to eliminate my need for gas, I'd be there. As long as the price wasn't prohibitive.

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Would if I could
May 3, 2007 2:53AM PDT

I have a 1990 Jeep Wrangler that I have been driving for over 10.5 years now and hope to get another five out of before it's done. Unfortunately I don't see myself being able to afford any new car (hybrid or otherwise) in the near future. I only drive on occassion and use public transportation most of the time. It only gets 19 mpg but I hope that I'm doing some good by keeping it out the landfill. In an ideal future, I will be forced to give up the car because alternative fuels become so effective and popular, gas stations go out of business!

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Hydrogen Powered Car!
May 3, 2007 3:20AM PDT

Ford has produced an H-powered version of its E-450 and other auto makers are doing the same. Once the fueling stations become more common or I can generate my own, I'll get an H-powered car.

Meanwhile, I don't want to demand a bunch of resources be consumed to produce a new Carbon-fueled car for me when my existing one works just fine.