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General discussion

Poll: What nationality's carmakers build the better car?

Jun 20, 2007 8:25AM PDT

For the average consumer, what nationality's carmakers build the better car?

American (Why?)
British (Why?)
Chinese (Why?)
French (Why?)
German (Why?)
Italian (Why?)
Japanese (Why?)
Korean (Why?)
Swedish (Why?)
Other (What is it?)

Please remember to be considerate of other members when posting your opinions and replies. Thanks!

Discussion is locked

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Im probably going to get yelled at....
Jun 20, 2007 2:23PM PDT

But, personally, i believe American cars (new ones) are the best for the average consumer.

Lets take a look at GM's types if cars.

Trucks (Light Duty LS + 1500): newer models are pretty reliable. (as with any car) you can get a good interior. baseline interior is very durable.

Trucks (Medium Duty 2500+2300 HD and non-HD): Personally, have had NO problems with my 2500HD. The Duramax pulls like a beast, and gets 23 mpg to boot =) '06 interior is okay, but '07 is better than most Japanese cars I've seen.

Trucks (Heavy Duty 4500 Top-Kick and Kodiak): One of the toughest heavy duty truck, very customisable, and comes with Duramax.

SUV (Tahoe, Suburban etc.): New interiors are among the best, with great A/V options, nav, and really comfy seats =)

Mid-size Car: don't ask me, i hate commuter cars.

Sports Car (Corvette): Way cheaper than the comparable German sports car (M line) and gets better gas mileage.


Over the years, I've had my good and bad cars. My 1992 jeep, the only problem is that the cat rattles. My '00 Suburban, only problem was 1 crank sensor fail (new model 8.1 vortec), no other problems so far. '06 Silverado 2500HD, no problems so far. My Toyota Highlander Hybrid, knocks consistently, even when it has been run ONLY on 89 since new. SL 600, battery system failure, roll bar popped up, consistent shock sensor failure, $800 for sparkers, more shock failures, brake system failures, 3 $800 bumpers (crap design). My (GONE!) 740IL, radiator hose came off, when taken in, radiator exploded on mechanics face, shorted window motor (of course when it had to be down), broken diff, replaced radio, 6 engine ECU resets.

In my car experience, the Americans have been the best. Hands down!

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Respectfully, I think your logic is faulty...
Jun 20, 2007 3:18PM PDT

You're talking all about GM's trucks and the Corvette which is a niche car. GM's run of the mill passenger cars geared towards the average consumer are for the most part complete and utter piles of junk. Same goes for Chrysler and Ford, although Ford seems to be actually learning their lessons over the last few years.

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what abunch of baloney
Jun 20, 2007 10:57PM PDT

your comment is an utter pile of junk ; for the most part ....

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Japanese, duh, unless you're lying, brainwashed, nationalist
Jun 20, 2007 3:57PM PDT

Namely Toyota, Honda, although my Nissan & Mazda did wonderfully well. Get a high gas-mileage car & forget 4 wheel drive unless you live WAY up in the very high snow country or ski ALL the time.

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Japanese
Jun 20, 2007 2:03PM PDT

Because of the "for the average American" qualifier, the answer has to be Japanese. If quality were the ONLY consideration, German cars would be just as good as Japanese. But average Americans have to consider price as well as quality, and nobody can beat out the Japanese when price is a consideration.

As for our friend who thinks England makes the best cars, I have two words: LAND CRUISER Wink

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Keyword being AVERAGE
Jun 20, 2007 2:04PM PDT

...Japanese. Definitely. My reasoning?

Japanese cars, on average, are more reliable. Toyota and Honda, especially. And, these days, Japanese cars aren't a penalty box in the way of luxury, perceived quality, etc...

Your average consumer is just after an appliance. Something comfortable, with good low-end torque (because making the needle move past the 3 is bad for it Wink), an imperceptible automatic transmission, and bullet-proof reliability. If you're after that alone, Toyota will suite your needs to a "T". If you want to have some fun with the car as well, but still want it to be rock solid reliable, and have a more involving driving experience (and one of the slickest clutch/shifter combos, and a very compliant suspension), look towards Honda. The other Japanese brands, while also good, haven't done quite so well in the way of long-term reliability (definitely not top 2, like Toyota and Honda respectively).

I'm on my second Honda right now, quite simply, because I don't want to deal with the local VW dealerships, and I'm on a limited budget. VW dealerships in general don't have the best reputation right now. The cars are becoming more reliable again... no more mkIV coil pack, window regulator, and oil sludging issues, that's for sure. I will most likely move to German manufacturers as my income increases, but I'm enjoying my 07 Civic manual Coupe enough to keep coming back to Honda, as well. Reliability aside, the average consumer might have some troubles "getting" a car like a VW Rabbit or GTI, for example. North Americans don't like hatchbacks, for some reason. They want loads of storage space, acres of room, more cupholders than there are seats, and a "couch on wheels" kind of ride. VW, being the most accessible German manufacturer, still doesn't quite know how to please the average American consumer. They're still somewhat of a niche brand here. The Japanese manufacturers, on the other hand, have designed several cars with these exact needs in mind. Why do you think the Camry sells so well? It's a couch on wheels.

American cars... this is where my personal biases will start to show. I really can't think of many American cars that I'd actually willingly drive. I can probably list them right here: Ford Focus (though that will change with the ugly new one no longer available as a hatch), Chevy Corvette, and that's about it. The build quality just isn't up to Japanese/German/maybe even Korean standards. And, in general, more and more American cars are only coming with automatics (something I refuse to buy), ho-hum engines (there are exceptions, of course), a far too uncommunicative ride, and a floaty suspension. I give all that a big, hearty "meh". Though, American cars can be quite reliable... so they might work quite well for an average consumer.

So, to summarize, and be a bit more specific at the same time:

Average consumer concerned looking for a reliable couch on wheels: Toyota, most American cars that are reliable.

Average consumer who actually enjoys a spirited, involving drive: Honda (including Acura), most any other Japanese manufacturer (besides Toyota), VW.

Higher income or more automotively enthusiastic consumers: German, Italian, British.

(Keeping in mind, I'm speaking of the North American market)

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Japanese, and I know why!
Jun 20, 2007 2:18PM PDT

I have been in the truck aftermarket and auto parts business for years and I listen to my customers. Many owners of Toyota pickups would tell me they had over 200,000 miles on their trucks and they were still running fine. They said if and when they would buy new, it would be another Toyota
The majority of the parts I sell ie: starters, alternators, are for the "Big Three."
A personal friend who was a trained Honda tech said the Japanese may make some junk but you'll never see it. They won't ship it.

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uh...
Jun 20, 2007 2:26PM PDT

when you buy a toyota truck, you buy a civic with a pickup bed...

you cant do anything remotely truck like with a toyota "truck"

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...you must be kidding me
Jun 21, 2007 7:57AM PDT

first off, toyota doesn't make a the civic, so how can toyota make a civic with a pick-up bed?!?! Im sorry you are so ignorant/misinformed. The new Toyota Tundra can tow more than 10000 lbs, and has a 5.7L v8 with 381hp and 401 lbs of torque...sure doesn't sound like a civic to me.

For those that swear they will only buy American: You cannot sit there and say that buying foreign cars kills the American economy because it does the exact opposite. Toyota, for example, just finished their new plant in texas, and it employs thousands. Ford and GM, however are closing plants left and right and people are losing their jobs. The Doraville plant in atlanta was just closed a few years ago, and other plants around the country went with it. American cars are still good (i personally love jeeps) but the quality is questionable at times, and on average japanese cars are better in the long run and have better fit and finish in most cases. I am fond of the new GM trucks, and their quality has definitely improved with this model, but i would still get an japanese car over an american car most of the time. Just go to edmunds.com and poke around at the auto ratings over there, or look at JD Power. The facts dont lie, and the #1 automaker in the world (now toyota, not GM) didnt get there by making crappy cars.

BUY JAPANESE CARS! ...then can build more factories and create more jobs to IMPROVE THE AMERICAN ECONOMY!

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Can you say trade deficit
Jun 21, 2007 11:31PM PDT

Again, most profits go back to the originating country. If you think the trade deficit is not a problem, I hope your kids and grandkids are going to enjoy their two low paying jobs at Wal-Mart and the corner gas station.

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drrrr
Jun 22, 2007 1:07PM PDT

im not talking about trade deficits...especially since china is the one to worry about. im talking about creating jobs for US workers.

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brainwashed
Jun 22, 2007 10:58PM PDT

You have been brainwashed by the Toyota ads on TV saying they are doing good for the Americans by building their plants where there are no jobs.
Yeah sure, what baloney. Theybuild them there so they can hire anyone desperate for a job who wont think long term and then Toyota fires them if they ge tinjure don the job
Retirement? no such thing
Retiree health benefits? no such thing
job protection? no such thing

Basically, Japanese firms are exploiting American rural labor to build their fortunes in almost 90% automated factories and discarding the workers who suffers any work related injuries. The workers are starting to realize and are starting to organize.

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again....misinformed/ignorant
Jun 23, 2007 12:20AM PDT

you said that they build these plants where there are no jobs? Well then tell me, please, is the business district of Austin TX a "rural" area with no jobs? I think not... Toyota just finished their new plant (TMMTX) about 2 years ago, which now produces the new tundra. As for retirement benefits and health benefits, there are plans in place for employees. Also, keep in mind that there are laws governing labor, and workers cannot be fired if they get injured on the job. This is why we have unions, to protect workers, and why things such as worker's comp exist.

And no, i have not been brainwashed. The big three have the same general practices that toyota does...toyota just builds better vehicles.

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220,000 miles on two 1994 Fords used daily.
Jun 20, 2007 3:28PM PDT

Where are these 200,000-mile and old foreign vehicles? I drive down the road two hours a day and am hard pressed to see a Japanese vehicle that is old enough to claim these numbers. I do not see Toyota trucks being on the market long enough to even claim this mileage. I drive 150 miles a day and my two 1994 American Ranger and F150 are just over this mark.

The primary issue with the starters and alternators are the connectors. You would figure that with all the new air tights on the harnesses they would put some on the primary battery leads. Nevertheless, I find no evidenced of any producers doing this in the general market vehicles.

I have also experienced whenever I buy a new car of someone going out of his or her way with pride telling me, I will like my choice. And we all hear the reviews from day one of a new purchase as we all arre looking for support of their choice, no matter what the vehicle make.

You want the truth on longevity of the average car visit a poor country and look at the vehicles that are economical to keep functioning. Look for bad roads, steep inclines, and enviromental extremes. I spent 6 months in Hermosillo Mexico and was amazed all the 20 + American vehicles. The foreign cars were much younger and mostly rentals from the states. The rough roads were destroying the majority of the vehicles leaving mostly American trucks. There were foreign cars in the market including dealers, but the old testimate were primarily rotting.

I have had only to replace brakes fronts pads at every 60k, rotors at 120k, rears pads at 140 k, original clutch on one, one clutch on the second from seal, one starter from bad wire connector at 160k, the Ranger is still the original starter, no alternators here. Original exhausts less a few hangers replaced.

Yes, the Japanese were smart in hiding their flaws and keeping their startups out of our market until refined. In addition, they are proactive to hide issues, which we appreciate. I have witnessed repair bills paid by the Japanese just to keep the customer happy and quiet about quality issues, just to maintain the valuable perception. But look at the statistics, as their volumes grow their quality is falling. They are only starting to experience the organization issues of the big three. We all realize the affect of complexity and size increasing the efforts needed to keep the ideal to produce the ideal.

I regularly rent a wide spectrum of vehicles and often find the correlation to public perception in error. Just two years ago, I rode in a foreign car that gave the feel and ride of a 1976 beat up AMCs. All the others, I continue to review for ride, content, value, materials, performance, and engineering options. I see the world market blending, smaller organizations evolving, and loosing control of their quality.

Watching Mexicans carrying entire extended families all at once in primarily American vehicles is a powerful testimate. They depend on them as a primary contributor to their quality of life. Maintain these vehicles by themselves with little resource to support major failures. This in itself I find a better complement than a clich

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longevity is in the eyes of the beholder
Jun 20, 2007 9:45PM PDT

I don't know where in our country you reside that you aren't familiar with seeing foreign makes w/o high mileage on them, but here in Southern California where I live, import brand cars routinely have placed on them 40k to 75k a year on them, without fail. I know, personally. I used to be a dispatcher for a busy courier company and by enlarge, import branded cars usually outlasted their domestic bretheren by a large margin in our fleet, year after year. If you got the use out of yours as you say, then you are one of the luckier ones. We had a guy with a Ford Focus that he bought new and was constantly back to the dealer on average every three weeks-sometimes for the same problem. His car was down so often, his supervisor warned him to either keep his car fixed or look for another job. My two cars are a Nissan with 237k,just 8k on its second clutch, and a Mercedes with 348k on it's original motor and automatic trans. You couldn't pay me to buy a domestic brand. I don't baby my cars, either. I've owned 15 cars, 5 Japanese, 5 domestic, and 5 European, front wheel drive, rear wheel drive, and four wheel drive. I do my own routine maintenance and by far, the least expensive to own, so far are the two I have now. My worst experiences were with the Buick, Plymouth, Dodge,Ford, and Jeep vehicles. NEVER AGAIN! Never again wil I be ripped off by car companies who don't care about me once I leave the showroom floor.

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Only 220,000 miles?
Jun 21, 2007 1:07AM PDT

You Said " Where are these 200,000-mile and old foreign vehicles? I drive down the road two hours a day and am hard pressed to see a Japanese vehicle that is old enough to claim these numbers. I do not see Toyota trucks being on the market long enough to even claim this mileage. I drive 150 miles a day and my two 1994 American Ranger and F150 are just over this mark. "

Mine have been traded - except for the 89 Nissan Hardbody Pickup with 275,000.

Recently traded off my 03 Nissan Sentra with 269,000. I kind of ran over a downed tree in the road - Too expensive to fix. Only 31 miles/gallon.

Before that one 307,000 mile Sentra began to develop transmission problem. Guess I should have had it fixed (That would have been the first and only repair) except for tires. Everything else still original except for tires and one brake job, but then I was ready for a new one. It was still getting 30+ miles/gallon.

Before that traded the previous one in with 72,000 miles ( a lease car, lease only good for 75,000) before I had to pay mileage. Geeze I only had it for less than 15 months, but then I only put 15000+ miles per week on.

Just purchased a 07 Nissan Versa. Rated at 36 mpg but I am only getting 34.

Have had Buicks, Chevy's Fords, Dodge and nothing compares to the dependebility. Lucky to get 150k.and 20mpg Lots of repairs come with them.

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Japanese, of course...!
Jun 20, 2007 2:28PM PDT

Everybody knows that!
But why does nobody admit, that as far as Japanese cars go,
the "SUBARU" is of the highest quality of them all?
I wonder...
Horst Fritz KRUEGER

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Swedish are better
Jun 20, 2007 2:49PM PDT

Swedish cars are tested also in cold temperature. But of course not all are good. Only those are good which are really manufactured in Sweden . The bigger ones.


Chineese and japaneese are not good because the car is not designed for last 1000 000 ( Million ) kilometer. Maybe some american cars are good too, but they are connsuming too much fuel.

It is my criteria for cars. i do not like fancy electronic toys in a car

It is waste of natural materia and energy to buy a new car every 3-4 years.

If you buy a New big Volvo or Mercedes you can wait 40 years to fill one million kilometer.

I'm 42 years old. I need only one Volvo or Mercedes in the rest of my life. I drive 25000km /year

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Subarus...
Jun 20, 2007 3:26PM PDT

Subarus ought to be good cars, for the amount of money they cost. And you'd better hope they're reliable because it'll cost you a boatload of cash to fix anything on them. Their commitment to full-time AWD makes them unsuitable for most people, in my opinion.

I hit one of the old wedge-shaped GL's with my Dodge Ramcharger once... I think I did the owner a favor; the insurance company paid more than it was worth. The little dent in my truck was no big deal Happy

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Car MAKERS
Jun 20, 2007 2:47PM PDT

The Japanese have been known to produce a better car then any other car maker besides Europe with the Mercidies Benze. I know I am a certified Transmission builder. I was one for over 30 years. I could see the progress the foreign auto makers were making, especially the Japanese. The Toyota has been around for a long time now. When they used to bring them into my shop for transmission work they had well over 100 thousand miles on them and still pured like a kitten. The American auto makers are for the money get them out the door and worry about the defects as a warrenty job. The american auto makers are lazy over paid. They do not take any pride in there work. All they care about it the pay check at the end of the week.(like they say never buy an american car that was built either on Monday or Friday). The Japenese on the other had take a lot of pride in there work. They do it right the first time if at all possable, and don't worry about how many cars they are putting out an hour. Where the US that's all that matters, PRODUCTION, MORE, MORE, MORE! I blame most of it on the Unions. Back in the old days Unions were for the workers, now all they care about is the MONEY! If an auto worker doesn't become a member of the union then they will do nothing for him, or her, BUT they still have to pay those union dues! In Japan they don't have unions as we do. If a worker has a problem the company takes care of it, weather it be medical or what ever. The Japanese are totally dedicated to their work and family. I was fortuneaunt enough to have the privalege of taking a tour of one of their assembly plants, TRANSMISSION assembly plant. The factory was clean, comfortable, and pleasent. I wouldn't mind working there myself. You could see the dedication these people put into their jobs. I also had the privalege of going through the GM transmission plant. Mainly the Detroit Allison transmission plant. Dirty, hot, and very unpleasent. No dedication to the work. They would make mistakes (in plain sight) and still it went on down the assembly line. GET THEM OUT THE DOOR WORRY ABOUT THEM LATER! When The transmission was totally compleatly finished it was put on a DYNO machine. It's a machine that tests the transmission for functionality. You could see the pile of transmissions that failed the test. I don't know how it is now, this was years ago. But I suppose it's still the same way. Every time I go to the local dealer to have my car worked on it's always wait because they have all this warrenty work to do. I think my next Truck will be a toyota, as the american cars are not worth the money they want for them.

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not sure about anything you say
Jun 22, 2007 11:01PM PDT

You have been brainwashed by the ads on TV saying they are doing good for the Americans by building their plants where there are no jobs.
Yeah sure, what baloney. Theybuild them there so they can hire anyone desperate for a job who wont think long term and then Toyota fires them if they ge tinjure don the job
Retirement? no such thing
Retiree health benefits? no such thing
job protection? no such thing

Basically, Japanese firms are exploiting American rural labor to build their fortunes in almost 90% automated factories and discarding the workers who suffers any work related injuries. The workers are starting to realize and are starting to organize.
Same for German MB building plant in rural Alabama

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Don't hate me!!=D
Jun 20, 2007 3:23PM PDT

But I believe Korean cars actually prove the purpose of driving. They are safe, reliable, and Korean's actually build a car intended for HUMANS to drive. I previously owned a 2000 Toyota RAV4 L, and all they care about is freakin' MPG. Yeah, we like having good mileage, but we also like to be comfortable in a car. Now, American is nice, but Japanese focus too much on tiny little gadgets like electric cup-holders and touch screen mirror sensors, or random things like this and they do NOT focus on things like LEG ROOM, INTERIOR SPACE, and BARELY touch up on safety, whereas Hyndai, for example, focuses an all of these aspects. One thing we would want out of Hyndai mainly is their "rolling distance" and "turning radius" with there cars. Cars are meant for driving as well, and not many car manufacturers acknowledge this.
Again, don't "hate" me.
This is my opinion.

I currently own a 2001 Hyundai Santa Fe` and I LOVE IT!!=]

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passenger space
Jun 20, 2007 3:30PM PDT

I don't have any experience with Hyundais, but I have to agree with you that Japanese cars frequently are less comfortable. I've driven a few Nissan Sentras and the interior was crap and extremely uncomfortable. The old Toyotas and Hondas were just as bad, although their newer cars are much much better.

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American is Best
Jun 20, 2007 4:05PM PDT

We make the best of everything!!! God Bless America !!!

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True...
Jun 20, 2007 4:50PM PDT

Yea well its a good thing my Honda Civic was made in the USA and a majority of the parts came from the USA as well. And I am pretty sure god has nothing to do with this, due to the fact that he doesn't exist.

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Re: Your Car
Jun 21, 2007 1:16AM PDT

Yes God does exist...you just can't see God unless you look at certain things. Look at a newborn baby and tell me you don't see God.
You are probably not going to see him in your Honda!!!

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The jury is out
Jun 20, 2007 5:33PM PDT

I guess it all depends what you are after in a car.

For reliability, you cannot touch Japanese cars. However, it must be said that so many Japanese cars are just (for want of a better word) ugly. My Misses has a Toyota Previa people carrier for our brood and it is safe, comfortable, reliable and very spacious ? everything we need.

Italian cars have fabulous designs, but are just not put together as well as the Japanese (apart from the ultra expensive supercars). Some of the new Alfa?s look great, but would you be able to rely on it not to go wrong just when you needed it?

I have only driven 2 cars from the US (while on holiday) and I?m afraid I didn?t like either of them ? fine in a straight line, but when it came to bends in the road . . . in the Buick particularly, I wasn?t even sure that the steering wheel was connected in any way to the wheels. It had good air-con though.

British cars ? well, we build cars for Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Vauxhall, BMW, Ford the list goes on. Does that count? No ? I didn?t think so. Land Rovers continue to be rugged, practical and (unfortunately) agricultural!

French cars are quirky and have some interesting design touches, but like the Italians, they are not built to anywhere near the same standard as the Japanese cars. They are cheap though.

Personally I?d go for a German car, they offer the best compromise between reliability and style, albeit at a price. I?ve owned 6 VW?s and they?ve always been reliable and (in the case of the Corrado?s and current Bora 4motion) they have a great combination of performance and practicality. I drive 20,000 miles a year and any car I have just has to be reliable.

Don?t ask me about Trucks though, as there is no call for them in the UK. We love our white Transit vans here.

Just my thoughts ? no offence intended to anyone!

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HEAR! HEAR! OUR CARS ARE THE TOUGHEST AND WE NEED TO SUPPORT
Jun 20, 2007 5:50PM PDT

THEM IN OUR COUNTRY!!I am in the Taxi Business and our cars made in the U.S.A. are the only ones that can stand up tp our abuse. In 33 years this is what I've seen!

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American??
Jun 20, 2007 11:55PM PDT

and no place else right? haha give me a breakkk XD the only thing american veichle companys do right is TRUCKS.. Toyota and Nissan have 2 good trucks that can compete.. but they dont use high output turbo diesel engines which is what I look for in a truck. Great torque and good HP with the turbo added on. GM and Dodge have great trucks in my opinon but everyone looks for different things in a Truck. Ford = crap even tho it is canadian created like me Sad.. since the americans took it over its gone to rubish.. they cant do anything right XD

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oh shoosh
Oct 22, 2007 6:24PM PDT

shoosh