Pioneer 5080 vs. 5020---72Hz Advance mode

by Maglor64 Aug 18, 2008 1:57AM PDT

I own and love the Pioneer KURO PDP-5080HD. I agonized about buying a TV that was not 1080p but have very little regrets (especially considering the deal I got on it).

One of the reasons I chose this TV is that it has the ability to run at 72Hz in the Advance Film Mode, which means (at least in theory) that it should be able to accurately reproduce "directors intent" in 24fps film based content, as it does a 3:3 pulldown, rather than the usual 60Hz/3:2 pulldown.

The one thorn in my side is the negative that CNet had to say about "Advanced" mode (it is actually spelled Advance with no "ed" at the end... but they call it "Advanced" in the following quote):

"Advanced mode, for its part, was just as disappointing, as we found with the PRO-FHD1 at delivering the promised smoother picture. To test it, we switched to our Samsung BD-P1200 Blu-ray player (the Toshiba HD-XA2 isn't currently capable of 1080p/24 output) and checked out Aeon Flux and a couple of other titles. We saw more judder and choppiness in Advanced mode than either Smooth or Standard--with Smooth again living up its name the most. After Aeon narrowly misses face-planting in the razor grass, for example, the stone walls evinced more choppiness in Advanced mode as the camera rose to a more birds-eye angle than in the other two modes."

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/pioneer-kuro-pdp-5080/4505-6482_7-32476901.html?tag=mncol;lst

I have tried to ignore that and just look at the different film modes with my own eyes to decide, but it has been hard with CNet's authority looming over me.

But here is where I get confused. In CNets new review for the 2008 Pioneer KURO PDP-5020FD, it praises the Advance mode very highly:

"Another option that Pioneer didn't change since last year's model is the 72Hz refresh rate imparted by selecting Advanced from the PureCinema menu. Since 72 is a multiple of 24, the TV can theoretically preserve the film's rate of judder and not have to engage 2:3 pull-down detection as a typical 60Hz display must. After setting our PS3 to 1080p/24 mode we checked out one of our favorite scenes for evaluating smoothness versus judder, the long helicopter shot in Chapter 7 that eventually finds Smith hitting golf balls off the wing of a spy plane parked on the USS Intrepid. Indeed, the Pioneer's advanced mode made the movement appear a bit smoother, without that hitch associated with 2:3 pull-down, although to our eyes the difference was subtle. Still, for videophiles who want to utilize their Blu-ray players' 1080p/24 mode, Advanced is worthwhile."

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/pioneer-kuro-pdp-5020fd/4505-6482_7-33002523.html?tag=mncol;lst

The quote starts by saying that this is an option that Pioneer didn?t change... so why the discrepancy! Last year they hated the Advance mode and this year they love it???!!!

I am confused.

What's the deal? Is the Advance mode/72Hz somehow better this year? Did Pioneer do something different or are the guys at CNet just Schizophrenic?

Thanks for your comments in advance,

Maglor64

Discussion is locked

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Re Pioneer 72Hz Advance mode

by HiThere144 Oct 30, 2008 11:40PM PDT

I believe the original comparison may be in error...if memory serves, "Advance" mode is for inverse telecine of 1080i material filmed at 24, but broadcast or otherwise delivered to the tv at 30 frames per second, whereas "Smooth" was for simply repeating frames for material delivered to the tv at 24 fps. I could be wrong, but it would explain the discrepancy in the review.

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interesting

by Pepe7 Oct 31, 2008 1:57AM PDT

What did they say over @ AVS forum regarding this discrepency(?) It would be helpful if you posted that info here as well.

cheers,
Pedro

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I'm far from being a knowledgable videophile

by jostenmeat Oct 31, 2008 7:12AM PDT

but maybe a couple of cents here.

First of all, Mr Katzmaier is a very demanding critic. Period.

For instance, about 1.5yr ago, my projector was hailed by Art Feierman of Projector Central . . "The JVC RS1, simply, is, overall, the best home theater projector I have seen, under $10,000". And I got it for 3k.

Mr Katzmaier gave it a positive, but lukewarm review. I suppose that most PJs in general will leave him somewhat disappointed in terms of color fidelity.

The Kuro is similar to JVC pj's in that their strength is black level, while color accuracy is wanting in comparison.

Then realize that both reviewers and consumers have their own tastes. Some prefer BRIGHT, some want the best blacks available, some are sticklers for accurate color, some want film "as original as possible", while others welcome some compromising of detail and use DNR to avoid "grain", etc.

When it comes down to it, it really is your opinion that matters.

*and why the discrepancy?

well, maybe they are just getting used to 23.976 fps finally, with its inherent judder. +90% of my viewing has been just that this year, and I've never got to enjoy that before in a home, only in a movie theater.

IIRC they were stating their HD-DVD player can't even output 24fps. I think a lot of them couldn't, but I know my A35 can.

review says "The Smooth setting on the PDP-5020FD is the same as last year's version, and it's designed to smooth out the judder characteristic of film-based sources. Many viewers, ourselves included, prefer to keep that judder intact for a more film-like, as opposed to video-like, look."

maybe they are getting used to it now. as we have BDPs that can output 24fps, as well as displays that can handle it now. Otherwise, Im confused as well... but again, this is overthinking it. you can drive yourself mad if you wanted to.

heck. i just learned my onkyo 805 processor when using 24fps is elevating black levels to PC levels (0-255?).

its still the most amazing pic anyone i know has ever seen. I thought about changing my processor, but i realized im chasing numbers, and not thinking about best expenditures per dollar. negative effect is still extremely subtle. The PQ is so good, my friends have nothing to compare it to... it is in its own class for 99.9999999% of the rest of the world.

I really dunno, but I wouldn't sweat it too much, and just enjoy.

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Some day I hope to be over this...

by Maglor64 Nov 2, 2008 5:13AM PST

Thank you for the encouraging words jostenmeat. You are indeed right that one can drive himself mad with these things. I still will sit in front of the TV for an hour switching back and forth between Standard and Advance mode on my Pioneer when watching a bluray on my PS3 in 1080p/24fps mode. I still can't decide which I like better. And this whole CNet thing has continued to be a thorn in my side. The one thing I am sure about is that a movie credits scroll definitely looks smoother in Advance mode (over Standard mode... and I don't ever use Smooth mode).

Just to be clear, do you believe that the "Advance" mode is indeed the same on both the 2007 and 2008 KUROs? Both running a 24fps feed correctly at a 72hz refresh rate... creating true "directors intent"?

I keep meaning to go into Best Buy and have them set up the new KURO with a Bluray player capable of 1080p/24fps and see for myself if I can detect a difference (improvement over last years) in Advance mode. I have watched the opening of I am Legend countless times analyzing all the slow pans and driving sequences for jutter so I could probably bring that disc in and get a pretty good idea.

If I do this I will post my findings here.

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You're welcome

by jostenmeat Nov 2, 2008 5:46AM PST

First of all, I don't want to misinform you, for all I know I could have already. Here is a quoted post #11487:

"Maybe someone knows the answer to this. I was playing a movie on my PS3 in m2ts format (converted over from .mkv) . When playing the movie in either Smooth or Standard, there was considerable judder throughout the movie. When I played the movie back in Advanced mode, it was very smooth, no judder. The video is 23.976fps and this app called Mediainfo indicates that it has 5 Reference Frames, so I am not sure if this will shed any light.

I have played similiar movies before at 23.976 fps and Smooth or Standard was fine. So I am curious as to why for this particular video file, Advanced worked very smoothly and Standard or Smooth introduced lots of judder."

from The Official Pioneer 8G Kuro Settings/Issues Thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=858851

cheers Maglor64

Pioneer 5080 vs. 5020---72Hz Advance mode

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