PC shut down & Freezing

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Re: PC shut down & Freezing = Don't defrag until its fixed.

by r. proffitt Forum moderator Jul 17, 2004 9:38AM PDT

Here's why. If the freeze, hang, random reboot happens during defrag the owner may face total data loss of what's on the hard disk. Some owners are not ready for the hard disk contents to vanish.

"When i firat boot up i seem too get about 10 mins worth, then the screen freezes and then shuts itself down. I have trouble restarting, so i switch off completely. Then 5 mins later i turn back on and it seems to be fine. Until the next time. It happens the same again."

Certainly sounds like a heat issue. There was a post in the forums where the owner didn't put heatsink compound on the heatsink, another had a failed motherboard fan, the stories continue, but your post is far too light on hardware details. Power supply ratings and "a story."

Tell more,

Bob

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Re: PC shut down & Freezing = Don't defrag until its fixed.

by panic Jul 17, 2004 9:50PM PDT

I did a test of my PC, when it was working OK again, and the results where OK, I Have include details about my machine

I have noticed other things happen recently like Once i had a CMOS Checksum failure which i had to reset my time/date. Also my Register Checker kicks in after the scandisk. This has happened with another motherboard, i was told about the power supply and heat problem then, but i have had another case which i said which is fair better ventalited and a better heatsink fan. Surely it can't be them?

Description Your Results
Brand/Model
Type Desktop
Serial Number Not available
BIOS Award Software International, Inc. 6.00 PG 11/22/2002
System Board VT8366-8233
ProcessorDescription Your Results
Brand/Model AMD Duron
Nominal Clock Speed 1300 MHz
Measured Clock Speed 1300 MHz
CPU Load 0%
Speed Rating 3670 (91% of 1756 similar)

Windows 98se

CDROM GENERIC GENERIC CRD-BP1300P
CDROM Memorex Memorex DVD MAXX 1648
CTMISC Creative Creative SB16 Emulation
CTMISC Creative Creative Gameport Joystick
CTMISC Creative Creative MultiMedia Interface
DiskDrive GENERIC GENERIC IDE DISK TYPE47
DiskDrive GENERIC GENERIC NEC FLOPPY DISK
DISPLAY NVIDIA NVIDIA RIVA TNT2 Model 64/Model 64 Pro
fdc (Standard floppy disk controllers) Standard Floppy Disk Controller
hdc (Standard hard disk drivers) Primary IDE controller (dual fifo)
hdc (Standard hard disk drivers) Secondary IDE controller (dual fifo)
hdc VIA Tech VIA Bus Master PCI IDE Controller
Keyboard (Standard keyboards) Standard 101/102-Key or Microsoft Natural Keyboard
KodakHidden EastmanKodakCompany KODAKIFS 10
KodakHidden EastmanKodakCompany KODAKCAM
KodakHidden EastmanKodakCompany KODAKROUTER
Media Creative Creative SB Live! series
Media Intel Wave Device for Voice Modem
Modem (Standard Modem Types) Parallel cable on LPT1
Modem (Standard Modem Types) Parallel cable on LPT1
Modem Intel Corporation Intel HaM Data Fax Voice
Monitor Hansol Electronics Hansol 720e
Mouse (Standard mouse types) PS/2 Compatible Mouse Port
Net Microsoft Dial-Up Adapter
Net Microsoft Dial-Up Adapter #2 (VPN Support)
Net Microsoft Microsoft Virtual Private Networking Adapter
Net Microsoft Microsoft PPP over ATM Adapter
Ports (Standard port types) Communications Port (COM1)
Ports (Standard port types) Communications Port (COM2)
Ports (Standard port types) Printer Port (LPT1)
System (Standard system devices) ACPI Fan
System (Standard system devices) Advanced Configuration and Power Interface (ACPI) BIOS
System (Standard system devices) SCI IRQ used by ACPI bus
System (Standard system devices) Composite Power Source

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Re: PC shut down & Freezing = Don't defrag until its fixed.

by panic Jul 17, 2004 9:52PM PDT

Forgot too say, the first time i had this problem i had a techician give a full diagnostic test on my motherboard. And there was no problems at all with it.

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Sounds like heat. Duron 1300 MHz CPUs are hot...

by r. proffitt Forum moderator Jul 18, 2004 12:39AM PDT

For a test run, remove the case cover and point a fan at it. If it runs longer, you have found your issue.

Cures vary and since I can't inspect the machine visually I can't offer any ready fix.

Bob

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Re: Sounds like heat. Duron 1300 MHz CPUs are hot...

by panic Jul 18, 2004 2:53AM PDT

OK, i have done a Memory and Hard Drive diagnostic test and both are OK!

I think my Processor has always been a little suspect i mean 60c looks a little high too me, OK the heatsink fan does cool it down abit. Is this normal?

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How did the test turn out?

by r. proffitt Forum moderator Jul 18, 2004 3:31AM PDT

I asked for the case cover to be removed, a fan pointed at the machine to see if it runs longer.

If you can't, then tell about it. But it's THE TEST that usually tells us what to do next.

Bob

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Re: How did the test turn out?

by panic Jul 18, 2004 3:42AM PDT

Haven't done it as yet! I'm doing some other stuff will i can before it freezes and shutsdown.

If this test does go like you said, what will i have to do next? New Processor, new heat sink fan, what?

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If its not heat, its likely memory.

by vmaxx Jul 29, 2004 11:38PM PDT

If the heat test didn't help.
Then go here:
http://www.memtest86.com/
and download the memory test program (linux boot) and run it. If you get _any_ failures, you have bad memory and it needs replacing. I had this same symptom with mine and it was bad memory.

Good Luck!

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Re: If its heat.

by samgrove Jul 30, 2004 1:16AM PDT

The heatsink compound between the heatsink and the cpu may need renewal.
If you are up to this, pick up some quality heatsink compound and remove the heatsink from the cpu. Clean off the old heatsink compound (Ronsonal lighter fuel works well for this), apply new heat sink compound, and reinstall the heatsink.
Heatsink compound can migrate out of the interface between the cpu and heatsink reducing the transfer of thermal energy away from the cpu.
One way of diagnosing a thermal problem is to reduce the clock speed of the cpu. A lower clock speed produces less heat.

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Your choice.

by r. proffitt Forum moderator Jul 18, 2004 3:50AM PDT

The test can uncover the base issue in just a few minutes. Since it's apparent to me that heat is an issue, I would stop using the machine for feat that the CPU would meltdown and then I could lose not only the CPU, but motherboard, power supply or more.

I don't want to sound alarmist, but when I read such posts I try to gently guide along and move away from danagerous (and expensive) heat failures as quickly as possible.

Some will want to run memory tests, other tests, measure temperature and more. Meanwhile, the equivilent of a fuse on the time____ is burning.

I hope this never happens to anyone, but it doesn happen. Just my advice is to move the case cover off before its too late.

bob

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(NT) (NT) Sorry for the typo. Change feat to fear...

by r. proffitt Forum moderator Jul 18, 2004 4:03AM PDT

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Re: (NT) Sorry for the typo. Change feat to fear...

by panic Jul 18, 2004 4:11AM PDT

Unfortunately i'll have to leave it for a hour or two to cool down. So i'll leave it until tomorrow to check. I'll let you know the result then.

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Re: Your choice- Test results

by panic Jul 18, 2004 10:04PM PDT

OK, i am running the case off and fan facing the Heat Sink/Processor test. Its been over 55 mins and i have had no shutdowns in that time. So you are right it's a heat problem. So what will be the best solution?
Would an additional fan do the trick?.
I shouldn't need a new case as the one i have is very well ventilated. The heatsink i have at the moment can cope with all processor up to 2.1ghz. My processor is only 1.3g's. So the only problem i can guestis the processor, how to cool it down.

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It may not be the CPU. Here's why.

by r. proffitt Forum moderator Jul 18, 2004 11:08PM PDT

You are now cooling the entire machine. But let me ramble a bit about a few items and then note possibilities and what I might do.

1. Durons run hot.

Not much we can do, but that CPU HSF you have may be OK if not coated with dust and the fan is spinning proper. As a rule of thumb, I like the following. For the Duron, if it's not listed on the CPU/HSF, then double the CPU clock rate of the Duron rating. YOU HAVE THIS covered.

2. Dust, fans.

You don't need to go overboard, but if there is a lint layer on the heatsink then you take the lint off and that helps. There are other heatsinks to look at on the motherboard and graphics card.

3. Some other part may be heat sensitive.

Some find it's the motherboard, some the video card. It's not fun to find it.

4. Cooling the case.

Adding fans rarely cures this. I find that sitting back and eyeballing the case to see if we can remove a metal breakout on the front where some CDRW may go will give some extra airflow and if that's not enough we can put a fan in the side cover to take air in or out of the CPU, motherboard chipset or graphic card area which now produce many Watts.

A cool trick (pun intended) is a fan at the very top of the case to exhaust hot air from the top. This may require the case to have the space for such and some lightwieght metal work, but it's been a good case mod.

5. Leave the case cover off.

But now move that fan out of the equation. If it still works then it's just too hot overall in the case.

In closing, it's not just the CPU that needs cooling...

Bob

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Re: It may not be the CPU. Here's why.

by panic Jul 18, 2004 11:41PM PDT

Answer to some of the questions. I'm not sure about the lint on the Heatsink/CPU as i got some one who knows what to do, to do it for me. So there shouldn't be a problem there.
The case itself has a lot of small holes on both sides of the case and at the back so i doubt if that's the problem.

The fans on the heatsink and the video card are both run like they should be, also. Fan is off at the moment
and so is one of the cases side panels. I'll switch off later and let it cool down for an hour and boot-up again. If the old problem arises then we can definetely rule out the case/ventilation.

Checking the CPU Clock too see if i can double it.

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Re: It may not be the CPU - Update!

by panic Jul 19, 2004 9:31PM PDT

(Checking the CPU Clock too see if i can double it.) I did this is was running at 100, know its running at max 132. And strangely enough i have had the machine on a few times since and not problems so far.
I'm not totally convinced this has solved the problem. I think its just a temporary fix until it happens again. But i shall make additional holes in one of my side panels on my case and ask around about adding a fan, possibly attaching it to the middle of the case panel.

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A machine and its BIOS.

by r. proffitt Forum moderator Jul 20, 2004 12:49AM PDT

One of the things I do (and "Tech" too!) is when we start on a new machine, we will install the latest BIOS then load the BIOS defaults. I am not suggesting you do this, but share why it follows that your foray into the BIOS settings may be a very important step.

There are many settings that can cause a machine to not be as stable across all the temperatures we will subject it to.

It's been discussed (and still is) if someday the PC must go to a TOASTER set of basic features without dozens of adjustments and just ask us "Would you like some toast?"

(points for naming the show which this line became an annoyance.)

Your foray into the BIOS likely set the settings in the BIOS proper for what parts are in the machine. If it does get heat sensitve, then rather than 132, I would drop it by the number 5 until it stabilizes.

Best of continued luck,

Bob

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Re: A machine and its BIOS.

by panic Jul 20, 2004 1:39AM PDT

Thanks, i just hope this will be the last of this problem.

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Re: It may not be the CPU. Here's why.

by Ajak Jul 31, 2004 12:32AM PDT

Do not remove the case cover, this will make the air-flow worse. Computer cases were designed to be used with the cover on, for maximum airflow.

You could try upgrading the BIOS.

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Look at this...

by Betageek Jul 30, 2004 4:40AM PDT

One comment I have yet to see in these great tips is the fact that it is possible to put the fan/heatsink assembly on the processor BACKWARDS. This, of course depends on what type of retainer the heatsink itself is using to lock itself down on the proc.
I use a dental inspection mirror and a flashlight to make sure that the pressure point is directly over the cpu chip and not off-center.
To correct this simply make a dot on the assembly with a marker, then remove the heatsink assembly, turn it 180degrees and then re-install it, taking care not to push down on top of it to hard. That will crack the processor, making it useless.

Anybody run into this before? I have....

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Re: Look at this...heatsink

by cwvcr3 Jul 30, 2004 11:52PM PDT

I had the same problem on a new build a number of years ago. I put the heatsink backwards, it looked good but it was not seated on the chip flush. It was a AMD 500 & I could only clock it at 300 otherwise it would not run! I finally figured it out & turned the heatsink around & all was good!

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Re: PC shut down & Freezing

by SILVERWOLF Jul 20, 2004 2:37PM PDT

I had that similar problem since saturday 7/17/2004. I was downloading something and doing a virus scan at same time and BOOM! everything went blank. I started PC again and it would load up briefly and then shut down and it keep rebooting and you can hear the grinding of the fan. Anyway, I read on the internet regarding the Sasser Virus may have infected my PC.
Today, I disconnect the phone line to modem and all external devices and started PC with no problems. I then ran virus scan to make sure and it found no errors. So try this and see what happens. Good Luck.

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Re: PC shut down & Freezing

by panic Jul 20, 2004 10:18PM PDT

Interesting, but i did a virus scan and it too found no
errors, as well as a spyware check. I'm almost certain is a heat problem. Thanks for the info anyway.

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Re: PC shut down & Freezing

by marykun Jul 30, 2004 12:00PM PDT

I am having the same problem where it will lockup during boot up. When I disconnect from the web it works fine. I did a virus scan and adware scan and it was clean. Reconnected to the web and the same problem appears. Help!!

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Re: PC shut down & Freezing

by Kenta78 Jul 29, 2004 7:37PM PDT

Hi there!
There could be a possibilty, that your cpu is going to hot. When rebooting, enter the bios setup and check the temperature of your cpu. Also you can check the speed clock. Check your motherboard manual how to change the cpu settings. However, if you feel uncertain how to do, ask a friend or a computer store. because if you do something wrong, there is a chance that the cpu may get fried. =/

Another tip, is to check the cpu fan speed or even open up the computer case, and look at the fan. Make sure that it is properly installed. (Also your motherboard manual will come in handy here).

The last thing, it could also be a small virus that reboots your computer. I?ve had this virus too, and needed a update from Microsoft, to solve it.
Check their website =)

Regards
/Kenneth
Sweden

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Re: PC shut down & Freezing

by denisegoggans Jul 29, 2004 7:44PM PDT

Hello Panic,this has helped me before,log off,and unplug your main power cord for just a few minutes,then plug it back in.Good Luck,Denise

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Re: PC shut down & Freezing

by tnusbaum13 Jul 29, 2004 10:13PM PDT

I had that problem on PC's with a certain run of AOPEN mother boards. My problem was caused by electronic components (capacitors) going bad and leaking on the mother board. Their job is to filter the power supply voltage to IC's on the mother board.
I believe the mother board type was AX3SP type. To see if this is your problem, take your PC cover off and look at the mother board. The Cap.'s are small metal cans about 1/2 in tall. Look and all of the 1/2" tall caps. to see if any are leaking black or white material on the mother board or white material on the top of the cap. If you have either type of leakage, you can have the caps replaced by some body that can do it, or replace the mother board. My company had between 100 and 150 PC's (installed in the field) that developed this problem after 6 to 12 months of operation. If your caps are ok, you could have a memory module problem that has an area of memory that's bad, or you can have a power supply going bad. I have seen your failure symptoms for all 3 of the above hardware issues. Good luck.

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Re: PC shut down & Freezing

by ramnet Jul 29, 2004 10:38PM PDT

I have seen this problem before and whilst I suspected virus and the usual problems (spyware/adware/blaster/sasser etc) it turned out to be a faulty switch on the case. In another instance whilst the power supply seemed adequate and appeared to power the box up once the CD-ROM/DVD kicked into play the PC just rebooted. By replacing the power supply the problem was quickly solved. My most recent circumstance ( this week) involved an Epox Motherboard Intel 865 chipset running an ATI 9800SE Radeon card. Supplier admits now there is a conflict with this hardware. So whilst it is possible that the problem is software if it is occuring more frequently than just the random reset I think you need to review your hardware , RAM , Video , Case (earth leakages) and power supplies being less obvious but proven causes for these problems.

Best of Luck and hope this helps.

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Re: PC shut down & Freezing

by rkharter Jul 29, 2004 10:38PM PDT

I have had this problem myself. I have repaired it a few times although I still can't tell you what is
causing it.
The steps I go through are:

1. Run a very good Spybot removal software such as
Spybot search and destroy(free to use)
2. Run an antivirus software program I have used both Norton and McAfee, McAffee costs less.

If your computer shuts down during the Antivirus scan, Immediately upon reboot run it again until the Scan can completes unfortunately I have never found out what is causing this problem, the software never reports an infection but it seems to clear it up.

For advanced users if you are familiar with your Task Manager list check to see if you have any unkown processes or programs running if you do shut them down then run your antivirus scan and you will probably have better success. If you are not familiar with your Task Manager, become Familiar with it, it is your friend. If you can manage to locate and shut down the program it will be easier for your antivirus to clean it.

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Re: PC shut down & Freezing - BAD MEMORY MAYBE?

by Overmann Jul 29, 2004 11:55PM PDT

First - some people are right about the virus updates etc... but if all that is ok....then, I think you should simply start by getting a new piece of memory. I have had both pc133 and DDR cause this to happen on AMD Motherboards. Swapped out the memory and they were fine. Memory is cheap! The other obvious thing to check is to make sure your motherboard is set correctly. I have had a few people bring me their home built machines running AMD chips at 100 bus when they should have had them set to 200 bus etc. Check it all very carefully. Double check the stamp on the CPU too and look it up to make sure you have the right settings for that chip. Good luck! And let me know if it helped.

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