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General discussion

Our right wing SE members tell us that free market rules benefit the people best.

Feb 2, 2004 9:33PM PST

Well, I question that.

In December my town had a "one in fifty years" hail storm.

The insurance company inspected, agreed to replace my roof, repair ceilings, repaint walls and generally was very cooperative.

Unfortunately, there is a property boom around here.

I am getting quite sick of emptying the buckets every night catching the rain by artful placement of plastic sheets arounnd the ceiling. If free market was tempered by a little bit of compassion, then my roof would have been replaced by now.

Getting the shites with all this

Ian

Discussion is locked

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Re:Our right wing SE members tell us that free market rules benefit the people best.
Feb 2, 2004 9:46PM PST

Sorry for your inconvenience, Ian. Use your eloquent words to write a letter to the editor, expressing your problems (more than one if necessary) Sometimes local news will take up your cause, if you let them know about it.Let the Ins Co. know you are mad and not going to take it anymore. Make sure you use the co. name where ever possibly, they hate the negative press.

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Re: Our right wing SE members tell us that free market rules benefit the people best.
Feb 2, 2004 10:02PM PST

Hi, Ian.

I don't think the free market has anything to do with it -- if most people suffered similar damage, there's simple an unusually large amount of work to be done, and not enough trained craftsmen to do it. BTW, when we were in Australia it looked as if the roofs there were generally tile, and hence more substantial than our shingle roofs, which do well to last 20 years. Planned obsolescence at its not-so-finest!

My objection to the right-winger's reliance on the "free market" is doing do in situations where there's no elasticity of demand (IOW, people absolutely need what's for sale, and hence can't wait for the price to drop to buy it). Major examples of this nonsensical reliance on a nonexistent "free market" include health care and such utilities as electricity and natural gas. Worse yet is the ANTI-competitive "Medicare reform bill," which specifically prohibits the government from using its size to negotiate lower prices for prescription prices for meidcare recipients. That's simply a Republican gift to the pharma industry that gave them big bucks in the 2000 and 2002 electoral campaigns.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Old Beelzebub is shivering...
Feb 3, 2004 3:21AM PST

as Ian's problem is not any fault of the free market.

The only disagreement here is that there is ALWAYS elasticity in demand regardless of the product.

Even FOOD is not inelastic as many people are willing to spend on other things that have higher priorities for themselves. Elasticity is dependant on personal priority and not a fault or benefit of the free market.

Even tile roofing or wood shingles as opposed to the more common composition roofing is a result of homeowner choice (generally based on cost) and NOT "planned obsolescence" as you seem to think.

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Re: Old Beelzebub is shivering...
Feb 3, 2004 12:39PM PST

Hi, Ed.

Wood shingles are now illegal in most places due to fire danger, and de facto everywhere because you can't get them insured. I disagree about tile and steel, though -- yes, ou can (and some people do) get them as replacements, but Beezer, Pulte, et al. don't even offer them as options in new home construction. As for your point about eleasticity, I disagree. With food, you have options -- peanut butter instead of beef if the prices are too high. But with drugs, the alternative to paying the price is a slow (or rapid) decline in health, so either there's a major long-term cost to one's economic decision, or one pays an exorbitant cost because one feels there's no other choice.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Re:Re: Old Beelzebub is shivering...
Feb 4, 2004 4:23AM PST
But with drugs, the alternative to paying the price is a slow (or rapid) decline in health, so either there's a major long-term cost to one's economic decision, or one pays an exorbitant cost because one feels there's no other choice.

EXACTLY the same applies to food or shelter or clothing or transportation--one makes a choice based on one's own priorities. Can't afford the latest, greatest, take what was being commonly used BEFORE the latest, greatest came on the scene.

The elasticity is there regardless. Not allowing the free market to work is a contributor to your idea of inelasticity because high prices are artificially upheld because demand is being subsidised.
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Has anyone besides me noticed there seems to be an increasing ads for steel roofs
Feb 3, 2004 4:46AM PST

even steel homes?

I've even seen some (brief and not comprehensive) discussions on tv occasionally regarding how much more costs initially and how long before savings suppose to equal out costs.

Just seems to be much more heard about it than I remember in the past, for a few months now.

roger

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I've seen a lot ...
Feb 4, 2004 12:35PM PST

... on homes in PA. Not so much around here except they seem to doll up old brick flat-roof buildings by adding pitched steel roofs and awnings. Seems a popular style these days. Steel construction has been around a while but isn't really popular for "stick built" homes -- I think more are familiar with wood framing, and with the nailers I don't see any real advantage from a builder's standpoint to go steel. There have been a lot of ads on radio for steel buildings, but mostly these are for commercial (small-large) uses.

Evie Happy

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Not always Planned obsolescence, Dave...
Feb 3, 2004 12:01PM PST

Dave, the choice of roofing material is not always for Planned obsolescence. Remember what I said about my roof (over 100-year-old house)at the old forum? It's two layers of slate. It has positive and negatives. The big positive is that it's totally fireproof and lasts for a very long time. The first big negative is the total weight of the roof, slate is very heavy. The second negative is safety. Imagine one of those tiles coming loose, sliding down the roof, and whizzing off the edge and heading for the ground. If you're unlucky to be in the wrong place when it launches, you might be in bad shape, especially if it hits you in the head.
If I ever had to replace the roofing, I'd use something modern, not only for the weight factor but also or the safety factor. My doing this would not be "Planned obsolescence".

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It mightn't be planned obsolescence J., but it sure would be stupid.
Feb 3, 2004 8:55PM PST

You have the premium of roofing materials, apart from several inches thickness of steel reinforced conrete or a home in a hill,

even then, slate still is the grand champion in my opinion. Not a man made product which rusts or decays, but rock which has already hung around for a few million years.

Instead of planning for your next roof which will not rust on you, as you're my age, but will rust on your son, get a modern scientific glue injected to avoid the risk of falling tiles.

I am so jealous of your roof.

Ian

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Re:Re: Our right wing SE members tell us that free market rules benefit the people best.
Feb 4, 2004 9:36PM PST

Hi Dave,

Planned obsolescence is not the issue. Yeah, slate roofs can last a heckuva long time, but there are drawbacks. The cost is many times that of a standard shingle roof ... and pray you never need to repair the thing. There are really only a few real estate markets in the US where the cost of such a roof is proportional to the home value. With asphalt you also usually get at least one (some will do two!) "go-overs" that don't require stripping down to bare. Much cheaper and since we have the basic 3-tabs now and plan to get archs, what we will be doing at a much reduced cost as soon as Ma Nature cooperates.

Evie Happy

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Re:Our right wing SE members tell us that free market rules benefit the people best.
Feb 3, 2004 12:19AM PST

Tough Ian

We've a lot still doing repair around here after the hurricane a few months ago. For the first two months you couldn't get help hardly, everyone was tied up. Of course, that meant scammers from out of area moved in, claimed to be from another state up here working, taking money and vanishing.

Hope you get some help soon. I can understand that the feeling that repairs such as yours should take priority over new construction. And it does seem wrong that the fact new contstruction is generally more profitable delays your repairs.

Glad your insurance company isn't bucking you anyway. I have a low opinion of insurance companies and their normal tactics in the US, at least what I've seen. They weasle out of as much as they can, pointing out legalese clauses in the policy that contradicts the plain language used to sell it. And then they can refuse to renew you anytime they want to, no matter if you've paid all your premiums. Around here, the policy is apparently if you have 3 claims, when your policy comes up for renewal, they refuse. You have to go to another company.

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Right now you're stuck, and I'm sorry to hear it. I've been there myself, but
Feb 3, 2004 3:05AM PST

the free market does not guarantee that all companies are good companies. We have a phrase 'buyer beware'. It means be very careful before you buy that you're getting what you pay for. In a free market, there are choices available, and the consumer must make the best choice.

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Re:Our right wing SE members tell us that free market rules benefit the people best.
Feb 3, 2004 7:01AM PST

No matter you be in communism or capitalism, the design is that the common man be subjected to the elite.

Nothing changes under the sun.

Welcome to world 101.

We have not moved much beyond head-clubbing from cave to cave.

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nt) Hi, Tim, hadn't seen you for a while. How's things?
Feb 3, 2004 7:21AM PST

.

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Careful. Rosalie gonna come along and apologize for your 'rudeness'..
Feb 4, 2004 5:10AM PST

as she did here and your innocuous response correcting her spelling of ugly (she used ugle) becomes an attack.

I'm still laughing about that one--maybe the word was personal in her case?

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Dang! Ed! hehe
Feb 4, 2004 5:21AM PST

You do have a way with wordsHappy I almost fell over laughing at this one! Now She can correct both of us!

Glenda

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Re:Careful. Rosalie gonna come along and apologize for your 'rudeness'..
Feb 4, 2004 5:27AM PST

Drat it Ed, I was hoping everyone would ignore that.

Why bring it back up first? and start the rehash again?

Realize the reference post was aimed at you, but couldn't we have left it till someone did complain about Ian calling someone by another name?

I'm sure one of a few would have protested it soon enough then the arguements could have started.

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Re: Careful. -- Good post, Roger! (NT)
Feb 4, 2004 9:01PM PST

.

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(NT) Oh, I almost said something myself about the ID'ing, barely didn't.
Feb 5, 2004 4:35AM PST

.

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Re:Our right wing SE members tell us that free market rules benefit the people best.
Feb 4, 2004 12:32PM PST

As others have mentioned, this has nothing to do with right wing or free market.

What do you want? The government to keep a crew of roofers at the ready so nobody would ever have to wait for a repair from a fluke storm?

Looking on the bright side, insurance is paying up. I assume then that you currently own the home? And a housing boom coinciding with this storm has led to a scarcity of repair workers? Well, then when it's repaired you can sell it for a profit which should ease your financial stresses.

Sarcasm aside, I feel for you. There was such a new housing boom in our region in a recent summer that it was impossible to get anyone to even come out to look at the gutter that had fallen off the house. Luckily a neighbor had them come to replace all gutters so we were able to catch one "in the neighborhood" ... if not, nobody was gonna haul it out there for a $100 job. Hang in there! We wanted to get the roof done last summer and it is still not done. By the time the spring rains subsided to allow for any roofing, everyone was so backed up. Then it got very hot. We finally found someone to do the roof a month ago. Of course now we have to wait for snow to melt and temps to warm so the shingles will seal.

Evie Happy