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Our partner in the

Nov 20, 2007 9:45PM PST

Discussion is locked

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Blame here sometimes misplaced
Nov 20, 2007 10:00PM PST

When a lady is raped, some idiot will say, "She shouldn't have been wearing that skirt."

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More often than "sometimes"
Nov 20, 2007 10:07PM PST

It's pretty much SOP for defense attorneys in rape cases to try to paint a picture that shows the woman "asked for it." It's one of the reasons rapes are so often not reported.

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I've never seen an outfit that
Nov 20, 2007 10:10PM PST

made me think a woman wanted to be gang raped. But that could just be me.


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It looks like we should send Christian missionaries ASAP
Nov 21, 2007 9:41AM PST

to attempt to persuade the Saudis that such practices are not acceptable to God. I'm sure most leaders in the western world abhor the actions you cite.

BTW, when you say 'Our partner', to whom are you referring? The Chinese, Japanese, French, British, Germans, ...? There are many nations who consume oil and consider themselves 'partners' of the Saudis.

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RE: 'Our partner', to whom are you referring?
Nov 21, 2007 12:04PM PST

Our refers to USA

Partner (in the Middle East) refers to Saudi Arabia

Do the Chinese, Japanese, French or Germans have air bases in Saudi Arabia?

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Dan didn't mention air bases. Why do you?
Nov 21, 2007 1:52PM PST

Does Canada have any dealings with Saudi Arabia? That would make Canada a partner of the Saudis. Why hasn't Canada condemned the Saudis for this court action against a woman victim?

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You questioned "Partners"
Nov 21, 2007 1:59PM PST

Do you want me to post a link to photo of President Bush and Saudi Prince "holding hands"?

Do you hold your "partners" hand?

IF you hold their hand, are your their partner?

Dan didn't mention China, France, Japan or Germany, why do you?

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(NT) In a word, No.
Nov 21, 2007 9:13PM PST
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(NT) Then I won't
Nov 21, 2007 10:12PM PST
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Nov 21, 2007 6:13PM PST
Do the Chinese, Japanese, French or Germans have air bases in Saudi Arabia?

They do not, and neither does the U.S. All American military activities in Saudi, with the exception of some training personnel, ceased at the end of 2003. That decision was made not by the Saudis, but by us.

American air support for activities in Iraq and Afghanistan is based in Aviano, Italy, bases in eastern Turkey, Kuwait, Abu Dhabi, the British facility at Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean and from aircraft carriers deployed to the Persian Gulf and adjacent waters.
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What you post is true,...
Nov 21, 2007 7:59PM PST

...and the Saudis again refused to allow American aircraft to launch sorties from Saudi airfields in 2003 in support of the invasion of Iraq - which seems rather two-faced, since they had no problems with our using those same airfields in 1991 to be "at war with Muslims or Arabs." Might the Saudi oil ticks have set their principles aside in 1991 since their wealth and power were directly threatened? Could the Saudis be that cynical? I think the answer is obvious.

The fact remains that after those snubs, and after the Saudi stonewalling on the 9/11 investigation and the earlier Khobar Towers bombing, the U.S. had (belatedly, IMO) had enough, and removed almost all American forces from Saudi soil.

I'm sure, however, that you will continue to not allow the facts to stand in the way of a good America bashing...

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C'mon guys! Sub-thread closed!
Nov 21, 2007 11:52PM PST

I see this topic as another one of those "Let's see who is posting, and look for any reason to start something" ones.Sad

About as enjoyable as a root canal.

Speakeasy Moderator

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There may be some who see it that way, but I don't.
Nov 22, 2007 4:01AM PST

I see it as a stealth attempt to slip in a political post, but let's assume that it isn't. What was Dan's point, and how do we respond to that point? Attempting to persuade someone that their actions are wrong is one way. How do we persuade Moslems that their faith is in error? Missionaries are one way to do that.

Is there a better idea?

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First, the woman did commit an offense.
Nov 21, 2007 2:25PM PST

The system in this country doesn't recognize that as a crime, but theirs does. Therefore, IMO it's unrealistic and counterproductive to 'urge the king to "drop all charges against the woman"'.
Having said that ...

Why was her punishment increased? Is she a multiple offender? Our system could do the same thing. (But not in this case, if I correctly apply our double-jeopardy rule.)

Was her companion punished? If not, they have a sexist system. Oh, wait ... they have a sexist system, and the ones in charge think that's proper.

"Shiite woman". Was that a factor in Sunni S.A.? Not possible here, but S.A. claims to be a somewhat religious kingdom, which BTW is responsible for the holiest site in Islam. (Maybe two holiest.) So, if she's an 'apostate from true Islam' (as the Shiites say also of the Sunnis), then ...

"woman ... and an unrelated male companion were abducted and raped by seven men in 2006."
If he was raped, then the rapists were homosexual offenders as well. Believe that's a capital offense. (I note that their sentences were increased. I'm also aware that the male mentality in that part of the world tends see only the penetrated as homosexual, not the penetrators. Recent case in Turkey.)

From the article: "A series of erratic verdicts have focused attention on the Saudi legal system, which is dominated by clerics who adhere to the kingdom's austere Sunni form of Islamic law. Personal status law remains uncodified and the system does not recognize the concept of precedent."
Now that's bad. It's generally a characteristic of more primitive forms of government, but then the Q'uran is 600 years old, and their system does 'have God on its side'.

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And let me just throw some gasoline on the fire, here ...
Nov 21, 2007 2:29PM PST
Official announcement: SE a no politics and no religion zone, then Religious topics will be allowed

So ... is this topic political or religious? Happy
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Got it 1/2 right anyway
Nov 21, 2007 8:23PM PST

I'd guess the perps got it worse there then they would have in a lot of places....including the US where some states think that "bad boy" license plates are helpful. I'm not sure how proper it is to adopt our ways or be snubbed. There can't be any progress to truly rectify injustice by arm twisting or shutting down dialog with those with whom you have ethical problems. Gains made through coercion don't sit on solid ground.

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I agree
Nov 21, 2007 11:57PM PST

..... re: that snubbing and arm twisting is not the way to resolve issues.

Speakeasy Moderator

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Who ever claimed the Saudis were our partners....
Nov 22, 2007 4:14AM PST

in the pursuit of freedom and justice?

Is it better to have cooperation or enmity? If we were tryi8ng to tell them how to run their wretched country you'd be complaining about that, right?