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General discussion

Our 911

Mar 8, 2004 8:17PM PST

About being so appalled. Not all victims follow lock step together or are arrogant enough to believe that only their feelings count when discussing this NATIONAL tragedy. Anyone who has any question about that should listen to the petty sniping by victims families as they argue over their vision for a memorial at the WTC site.

Our 9/11
The attacks happened to us all.


But "the 9/11 families" are not a monolithic group that speaks in one voice, and nothing has made that more clear than the controversy over the Bush campaign ads.

It is one thing for individual family members to invoke the memory of all 3,000 victims as they take to the microphone or podium to show respect for our collective loss. It is another for them to attempt to stifle the debate over the future direction of our country by declaring that the images of 9/11 should be off-limits in the presidential race, and to do so under the rubric of "The Families of Sept. 11." They do not represent me. Nor do they represent those Americans who feel that Sept. 11 was a defining moment in the history of our country and who want to know how the current or future occupant of the Oval Office views the lessons of that day.

The images of Ground Zero, the Pentagon and Shanksville have been plastered over coffee mugs, T-shirts, placemats, book covers and postage stamps, all without a peep from many of these family members. I suspect that the real outrage over the ads has more to do with context than content. It's not the pictures that disturb them so much as the person who is using them. This is demonstrated in their affiliation with Moveon.org, a rabidly anti-Bush group that sponsored a rally they held last Friday calling for the president to pull his ads off the air. But by disingenuously declaring themselves "non-partisan" and insisting that it is a matter of "taste," they retain a powerful weapon that they have learned to exploit to their advantage. They are "9/11 family members" and therefore enjoy the cloak of deference that has been graciously conferred upon them by the public, politicians and, most significantly, the media.


As to the ads, Cokie Roberts had it pretty much right on This Week on Sunday. The Democrats hysterical response tells you all you need to know about what the real problem is they have with the ad -- no equivalent leadership, vision and resolve on their side.

Evie Happy

Discussion is locked

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Re:Our 911
Mar 8, 2004 8:32PM PST

Evie,

That's said better than I ever could say. Last night, I heard one-time Clinton campaign/political advisor **** Morris on Fox. Now, I try to take what Mr. Morris says with many grains of salt, but I thought it interesting that he had no problems with the Bush-Cheyney ads and thought that referring to 9/11 as they did was just fine.

His only criticism of the Bush reelection effort was that it was too positive in nature, and that he thought that the time had already come for the President to trot out negative ads against Sen. Kerry.

I suspect that Karl Rove would rather not do that yet for fear that the GOP will be portrayed as somehow being "desperate". Time will tell if that decision is the correct one. It is worth noting that President Bush, in a speech last night, characterized as "irresponsible" the legislation reducing intelligence community funding that Sen. Kerry proposed in the wake of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. I think I know from where the attacks will come...

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As usual, bush lacks understanding.
Mar 8, 2004 11:57PM PST

Over the following several years Kerry voted for huge increases in the intel budget. Kerry's proposal would have cut specific programs that were wasteful.

Dan

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(NT) Message has been deleted.
Mar 9, 2004 12:39AM PST
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My eyes are a lovely gray/green. You're wrong as usual.
Mar 9, 2004 1:39AM PST

Why would you guess brown?

Dan

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Profound as usual. (NT)
Mar 9, 2004 10:42AM PST

.

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Wow, which one's gray and which one's green? Reminds me of...
Mar 9, 2004 6:56PM PST

...a joke about some guy buying a glass eye on discount since they were overstocked on blue ones and walking around with one brown eye and one blue eye.

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Re: which one's gray and which green? -- Many folks eyes change color...
Mar 9, 2004 9:47PM PST
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(NT) Edward, I 'got it'.
Mar 9, 2004 10:02PM PST

.

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(NT) Message has been deleted.
Mar 9, 2004 10:59PM PST
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a fibre rich diet maybe
Mar 9, 2004 7:36PM PST

.

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Re:Our 911
Mar 8, 2004 11:14PM PST
The images of Ground Zero, the Pentagon and Shanksville have been plastered over coffee mugs, T-shirts, placemats, book covers and postage stamps....

They have? Coffee mugs? I haven't seen anything like that. I've seen posters of the firemen raising the flag, but that's all I can recall. And those posters weren't being used in a campaign ad. I think that's the difference.
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Coffee mugs - yep
Mar 9, 2004 1:20AM PST
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Re:Coffee mugs - yep
Mar 9, 2004 2:01AM PST

Extremely tacky IMO. If the proceeds were going to benefit the victims' families or towards the rebuilding at the WTC site, then I guess I could cut them a little slack, but otherwise, yeech.

As tacky as these trinkets are, none are being used as campaign ads.

Still haven't made up my mind on this one. One thing though -- if Gore had been President on 9/11, I betcha the Republican ads in '04 would still have 9/11 images -- superimposed on Gore's face with some voice-over going "It happened on HIS watch!"

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Re:Re:Coffee mugs - yep
Mar 9, 2004 9:58AM PST

Hi Josh,

I'm not sure Kerry has come out and mentioned that, but I've seen a few of those Dems who complained about the ads say something similar -- like that you would think Bush wouldn't want to remind Americans of that fact. We've been listening to the conspiracy theories and the "Bush knew" for a while now. So why don't the Dems make that an issue if it were a winning one? Because most Americans value Bush's leadership in the face of a Nation's tragedy and don't blame him for it.

Go to www.peacefultomorrows.org and check it out. Aligned with unitedforpeace.org, VVAW (didn't realize that still existed but it does and that is the one Kerry was active in). Hardly a non-partisan group that should speak about politicizing war or their own actions after 9-11 Sad

Evie Happy

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Re:Re:Re:Coffee mugs - yep
Mar 9, 2004 10:07PM PST

Hi Evie:

I think the difference is that the "Bush knew" crowd are mainly people at the far left, while the "it's Gore's fault" crowd would have consisted of mainstream Republicans. Just my opinion.

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Nah, it would probably be about how he managed to blame US
Mar 9, 2004 10:45AM PST

for the attacks. Isn't that what the Dems usually do?

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And how would he do that?
Mar 9, 2004 10:09PM PST

Clinton had been President for the previous 8 years and Gore was his VP. There was no "previous administration" Gore could have dumped the blame on. What Republicans do you think he would have tried to blame?

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Re:Our 911
Mar 9, 2004 7:51PM PST

Now, for one of a very few times, comes a positive statement from a democrat. This Ms Burlingame is a democrat making a statement that I can agree with. A statement that calls things correctly, as an American, and a statement that isn't complaining and crying.

I haven't seen the ad that is the basis of the controversy, so I'm unable to understand the controversy, however I think President Bush would be remiss if he didn't use 9/11 subject matter as a campaign tool. In the days following that horrific event, the world was witness to the depth of character of two real leaders - The Mayor of New York and the President of the United States.

In a country where things are forgotten all too quickly, 9/11/01 reminders need to be constantly issued. 9/11/01 was not a political contrivance of any political party involved in this campaign, but it certainly revealed the strength of leadership of individuals. It separated leaders from politicians.

It is unfortunate, IMO, that a few individuals, financially backed by supporters of a candidate in this campaign, are being 'used' in this manner. It is the groups calling themselves the Families of 9/11 and Peaceful Tomorrows, and the individuals providing the financial support for them, that are immoral in this issue.

Thanks, Ms Burlingame, for setting the record straight.

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And we've seen Kerry's depth of character...
Mar 9, 2004 8:37PM PST

Del, you mentioned "depth of character". We've seen Kerry's with his Hanoi John Vietnam routine.
Oh, wait, now Kerry is waving his "boomerang medals" again.
"Character" to Kerry means saying anything to get into power. Flip here, flop there, say anything to achieve your real botom line goal- getting into power.

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Re:And we've seen Kerry's depth of character...
Mar 9, 2004 11:16PM PST

Kerry IS a character and has no depth....he has a history of saying and doing anything that will further his political step up.

Bush is doing well with his campaign in my opinion and the gloves will come off soon, I suspect.

TONI

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'Hanoi John' is a bit over the line, J
Mar 10, 2004 12:17AM PST

So is Edwards the anti-Christ too? Or will he only become that if he gets picked as Kerry's running mate?

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No Josh, if you go back and read his 'testamony'...
Mar 10, 2004 12:45AM PST

and how he made liberal use of invented "atrocities" in it as well as his supportive actions regarding Vietnam AND his actions regarding vietnam and MIAs you would be hard pressed to think that Hanoi John is anywhere but on the mark.

If you need links just ask as I know you at least take the trouble to read them.

Far as Edwards, if the Democrits turned him down he must be salvageable! Devil

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Looks like your keyboard is still acting up, Ed
Mar 10, 2004 12:48AM PST

"Testimony" and "Democrats" had a couple of letters transposed.

Wink

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Spelling suggestion, Ed
Mar 10, 2004 4:23AM PST

Try, Democrites, Ed. The other obvious melding, "hypocrats", really doesn't "make it".

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Not for a lot, Josh...
Mar 10, 2004 4:07AM PST

Josh, not for a lot of veterans who served during that time. We got a lot of abuse from protesters like Kerry, as well as people who didn't serve. It still goes on. Now, it's our turn to speak our minds, and a lot of us will. Again call us things like warmonger, baby bomber, and such, we will express our opinions.

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Re:Not for a lot, Josh...
Mar 10, 2004 4:42AM PST

I know there was a lot of abuse -- from both sides -- and it's still obviously a very emotional issue for people on both sides. I may not always succeed but I do try not to let myself get all worked up and let emotion rule my thinking or statements when it comes to Vietnam. I also appreciate that a number of SE members are Vietnam vets, and that the number of people who did bad things over there is very small.

My personal opinion is that Kerry served with distinction and came home disillusioned, and expressed that disillusionment as best he could, and received a bit of praise and a bit of criticism for it. I just don't think "Hanoi John" is fair, and I'm no supporter of what Jane Fonda did in '72.

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Don't you think, Josh...
Mar 10, 2004 4:58AM PST

Josh, don't you think that the North Vietnameese got a lot of "milage" out of Kerry's statements? General Vo Nguyen Giap (North Vietnam) seemed to think so, just like they did with Hanoi Jane. Hanoi John.

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Re:Don't you think, Josh...
Mar 10, 2004 5:15AM PST

I opposed the war, and I protested against it, but if anyone called me "Hanoi Josh" for doing so I would feel offended.

People who opposed the war in Iraq were accused of feeding pro-Saddam propaganda machines, but people who supported the war probably fed anti-US propaganda machines. You can't worry how someone is going to "spin" your opinions. If you take issue with something your country is doing, you have the right -- the responsibility in fact -- to say so. That may be the single most precious right we have.