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General discussion

Once again, appalled but in no way surprised

Mar 4, 2004 12:14AM PST
http://www.wnbc.com/wtc/2896142/detail.html
http://www.iht.com/articles/508754.html

***
"It's as sick as people who stole things out of the place," Firefighter Tommy Fee, of Queens Rescue Squad 270, told the Daily News in Thursday editions. "The image of firefighters at ground zero should not be used for this stuff, for politics."
***

I hadn't expected bush's first campaign act to be the exploitation of tragedy, but I guess I was just being optimistic. He might as well have superimposed an image of himself sitting on the flag draped stretcher, grinning, waving his arms, and yelling 'vote for me', while his little legs swing playfully.

Dan

Discussion is locked

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There is NOTHING 'atrocious' about them except in your mind. (NT)
Mar 4, 2004 3:58AM PST

{I}

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'Nothing' is what your statment has to do with the ads, anyway. -nt
Mar 4, 2004 4:04AM PST

.

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(NT) Message has been deleted.
Mar 5, 2004 7:40AM PST
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The correct ad...
Mar 4, 2004 4:40AM PST

would have shown Air Force One disappearing over the horizon on it's way to wherever he ran off to. Leaders lead from the front. Not endorsing any other party or candidate here, just my opinion of his bravery on that day.

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So, he should have headed for...
Mar 4, 2004 5:05AM PST

the White House?; which was also targeted
the Pentagon?; which was hit
Congress?; another potential target
New York?; to add to the stress and be accused of a photo-op

so much for national security. Wouldn't the Dems have had a field day with that calling him an idiot and/or a cowboy?

I think his personal courage is unquestionable. He has made himself a huge target for very determined people, but held fast to his course in spite of it.

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All good points
Mar 4, 2004 5:30AM PST

But - to disappear completely when US citizens needed comfort and reassurance was totally wrong. He was in Florida. No airplanes were aimed at him. It would have been impossible for a terrorist to target Air Force One with another airliner. I doubt whether Democrats or anybody else would have called him anything for showing real leadership during the crisis. Yes there are procedures in place that dictate actions but Air Force One is a secure platform or even a Kneecap aircraft. Why did we spend millions to equip these as flying command posts when he buries his head in Nebraska?

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Re:All good points
Mar 4, 2004 10:16AM PST

Hmmm...Patrick, apparently you were never in the USAF. AF One and AF Two were designed many years ago as also a command post to not have to depend on ground areas that were or may be wiped out (were you a grown-up during the 'cold war'). I would definitely want my Commander-In-Chief (The President) at that specific location (Nebraska) if he couldn't be in Washington DC. Do you realize or know what is there? You should either see a documentary film or read about SAC headquarters, although they cannot or will not tell you everything. Also there are other changing contingency plans at key and changing Air Force locations for the President to land and command during a national emergency. He and his advisers did the right and correct thing.

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Sorry John
Mar 9, 2004 1:23AM PST

Just noticed your post. No I was not in the Air Force, I served in the Marines. As to being a grown up during the cold war, I'm not as old and wise as you but I'm not a youngster either. I am aware of what is in Nebraska and why that is where he went. My post was strictly my opinion of my expectations of a leader. It is apparent to me that his advisors control what he does and I see no evidence of strong individual leadership from him. His reaction to the immenent threat on 9/11 was by the book but IMO an overreaction to the reality of the situation. After all US airspace was cleared danger to him passed.

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In fairness to Bush....
Mar 4, 2004 5:12AM PST

....there are standard procedures for protecting the President in a national emergency, and as far as I can recall those procedures were followed. Had Gore been President on 9/11, the same procedures would have been followed.

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Re:In fairness to Bush....
Mar 4, 2004 11:20AM PST

Right you are Josh.

But not just for his protection as being implied, but to place him where he could get fast incoming information/intelligence with a larger group of experts on the ground, face to face advice of experts, enhanced electronic devices, and capabilities to exercise immediate actions without any delays. He does not have that large amount of experts on board his aircraft, has a communications command post on board, but that capability is much more enhanced by being on a ground command post such as where he was taken to.

John
I had a very close friend (now gone) who took me on a tour of AF Two when they were Boeings 707's.

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We should recognize that the NYC firefighters union supports John Kerry.
Mar 4, 2004 4:44AM PST

You're making a regular habit of being appalled Dan. I don't suppose you have any partisan motives either huh?

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My motivation.
Mar 4, 2004 5:56AM PST

I'm most motivated by the memory of friends that would be rolling in their graves if there was enough left of them to bury after being crushed by huge office towers falling on them. Is that motivation enough?

Is your moral sense refined enough to understand this?

You parade your sanctimony like a majorette and you cannot see how wrong this is. I cannot understand people who turn their compassion on and off like a god damned light switch.

Dan

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Then what is your problem with President Bush
Mar 4, 2004 1:16PM PST

who has sought justice for your friends, and who has worked to prevent more from joining them?

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Exploiting A Catastrophic Event...
Mar 4, 2004 3:12PM PST
Then what is your problem with President Bush who has sought justice for your friends, and who has worked to prevent more from joining them? - Kiddpeat

If GW had taken his job more seriously and put more effort into it, 911 may never have occurred. It is sickening that 911 happened even with all the warnings and alerts. And with all that going on, GW chose to take a month long vacation after only being in office for 7 months. Now GW is trying to exploit a catastrophic event that he might have been able to prevent, simply for political gain???
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Oops! Looks like YOU are doing the SAME.
Mar 5, 2004 12:08AM PST

With disgust I repost the following;

If GW had taken his job more seriously and put more effort into it, 911 may never have occurred. It is sickening that 911 happened even with all the warnings and alerts. And with all that going on, GW chose to take a month long vacation after only being in office for 7 months.

With understanding I ask the following;

Do you know of any catastrophic event deliberately caused by mankind that has not been politically exploited throughout all history?

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It happens, but it's wrong. Glad you agree. -nt
Mar 5, 2004 12:50AM PST

.

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My problem is that he's making political hay by
Mar 4, 2004 10:29PM PST

pissing on the memory of 9-11 victims. That's my problem with this particular move of his.

How can you defend this action? I do notice that you're trying to change the subject away from his crass use of crushed human remains.

Dan

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My cynicism has been built by the Democrats and the liberal left
Mar 4, 2004 11:33PM PST

since at least the time of the Bork nomination when your friends began the policy of character assassination that they continue to this day. The longer it's used, the less the credibility that will be given to it.

In your case, you claim to have friends who died on 9/11, and you claim that gives you special status to speak for them. You say you're outraged that a short clip is shown in a political ad, yet you've spent the last few years losing no opportunity to condemn the man who sought justice for those victims. We are all outraged by what happened on 9/11, but we are not all willing to condemn the man, who at great risk to himself and his family, tried to do something about it.

You are always trying to put words in someone else's mouth. I don't defend 'pissing on the memory of 9-11 victims'. I do say that President Bush has every right to remind us that he was the one who took national leadership in this crisis.

Jesus said that, if you show compassion for your friends, you have only done what's normal. That's what everyone does. It's when you show compassion to your enemies that true virtue is shown. I'll leave it to you to decide how you measure up on that scale.

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With one face you quote Jesus
Mar 4, 2004 11:47PM PST

With the other you endorse bush's political use of the victims of terror. I can't think of a catchy Jesus quotes about hypocrisy, but it would sure be appropriate here.

Dan

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Tower of Siloam. Did Jesus "Exploit" it?
Mar 5, 2004 12:18AM PST

Luke 13: - 1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all theGalilaeans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

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There's still the same question Dan, how do you measure up?
Mar 5, 2004 2:29AM PST

Jesus seemed to like graphic descriptions. One that comes to mind is white washed sepulchers.

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How does that address your hypocrisy? -nt
Mar 5, 2004 3:01AM PST

.

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I thought you were searching for a description. (NT)
Mar 5, 2004 4:52AM PST

.

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Well said! I'm UTTERLY APPALLED at the manner in which Liberals are trying to EXPLOIT 9-11 [nt]
Mar 5, 2004 12:14AM PST

[nt]

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Re: UTTERLY APPALLED at the manner in which Liberals are trying to EXPLOIT 9-11
Mar 8, 2004 2:23AM PST

James, last I heard Bush, Rove, Hughes and co. were anything but liberal. Bush has managed the impossible -- taken what was his biggest asset and turned it into a partial liability by his crude attempt to exploit death and suffering to his own advantage. The only image that I can recall seeing or hearing about that comes close is LBJ's "daisy" commercial, and that wasn't using real images of dead and dying Americans.

-- Dave K.
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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(NT) Message has been deleted.
Mar 5, 2004 8:10AM PST
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Memory of military casualties
Mar 7, 2004 11:03PM PST

Please let me know where I have been disrespectful toward the memory of military casualties. If you cannot point to specific instances please request that your post be removed.

Dan

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If you can't remember the numerous threads in which your comments...
Mar 8, 2004 1:18AM PST

have been exactly that start taking notes but don't expect others to do so for you.

To refresh your memory however you may recall that your participation in certain threads and the manner in which you participate has been mentioned before.

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You are shameless.
Mar 8, 2004 1:22AM PST

.

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no, SHAMELESS == Dan (I can hardly hold a candle to your display of it) (NT)
Mar 8, 2004 1:25AM PST