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General discussion

On Bush, the election and the direction of the US generally.

Apr 5, 2005 6:00PM PDT

Wish I had expressed my views as clearly or in as timely a fashion. This is from one of Canada's best known scientists and broadcasters on science and the environment. He's about 10 years older than I, that makes him 68.

This was published a week after the election.

Don't Mistake Criticism of the US for Contempt

"Yet now those who dare criticize the choice of the slim majority of American voters who picked Bush are being accused of being anti-American. Well, if being anti-American means being against the war in Iraq, supportive of women's rights, supportive of progressive environmental policies, against the missile defense system, supportive of stem-cell research and supportive of same-sex marriage, then sign me up. But I don't believe it does.

"Simply disagreeing with that slim majority of voters does not make a person anti-American. In my youth I received a scholarship from an American University worth more than my father made in a year and it allowed me to attend one of the finest colleges in the world. Later I earned a PhD there and I am forever grateful to Americans for that. When I returned to Canada, I could not compete with my peers elsewhere in the world because of the poor funding available in Canada at the time. I stayed because I received a large U.S. grant. I will never forget the generosity of the U.S. and owe a huge debt of gratitude.

"But it is precisely because I love America that I am so profoundly disturbed by what is going on there. Unquestioning acceptance of the status quo isn't exactly an American ideal. In fact, it strikes me as decidedly un-American.

"So yes, when 52 per cent of Americans vote for Bush, I will say that I think they made a mistake. And when 11 states vote overwhelmingly to ban gay marriage, I will speak up. Disagreeing with a ban on same-sex marriage is not a matter of being out of touch with "American values." It's a matter of human rights. When one group in society is singled out and repressed and not given the same opportunities as others, then their rights are being violated. That is simply wrong. It doesn't matter if the majority of people voted for it. You can't vote away human rights."

http://www.davidsuzuki.org/about_us/Dr_David_Suzuki/Article_Archives/weekly11120401.asp

Sorry if this looks like trolling for conflict, it's not. But it does clearly express both my view and the views of what I believe to be a majority of native born Canadians, as well as the views of much of Europe.

Rob Boyter

Discussion is locked

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I think you are becoming hysterical
Apr 8, 2005 3:01AM PDT

Show me an example of someone calling anyone anti-American. (Michael Moore excepted. Your take on him is WAY off IMHO).

Yeah, sure there are lots of nutty commentators on BOTH sides. I don't see how you can credibly say the political scene is dominated by conservatives
Are you claiming SE is staunchly conservative? Seems to me to be fairly evenly divided. Let's see a count. I'll even let you call me a conservative, though I'm not.

You want to see some really offensive left wing websites? I can show you plenty. It cuts both ways. What I am saying is that this is not common in today's society.

If Suzuki's complaint is valid why doesn't he provide evidence? Why doesn't he cite a pundit who is calling him or anyone anti-American? It should be easy to do if it is indeed common. I think he's a crybaby who can't tolerate others' points of view, actually.

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Your standard response to almost anything I post Ed, is
Apr 10, 2005 3:18AM PDT

hysterical, or crazed, or some other pejorative.

Mark's is that I am not an American, regardless of birth, legality, or a valid passport.

Accusations of Anti Americanism have been rife in the conservative media for years dating back to the McCarthy era if not before. Certainly they were common in the 60's

Let's see if they've come up on Speakeasy (now there's an oxymoron)?

Re: Anti Americanism
http://reviews.cnet.com/5208-6142-0.html?forumID=50&threadID=96414&messageID=1099087&tag=

http://reviews.cnet.com/5208-6142-0.html?forumID=50&threadID=94491&messageID=1077589&tag=

http://reviews.cnet.com/5208-6130-0.html?forumID=50&threadID=94786&messageID=1073800&tag=

http://reviews.cnet.com/5208-6130-0.html?forumID=50&threadID=93238&messageID=1053385&tag=

http://reviews.cnet.com/5208-6130-0.html?forumID=50&threadID=93238&messageID=1053385&tag=
re: the anti Americanism of Bill Moyers and myself.

http://reviews.cnet.com/5208-6130-0.html?forumID=50&threadID=92053&messageID=1041208&tag=

http://reviews.cnet.com/5208-6130-0.html?forumID=50&threadID=92064&messageID=1040119&tag=

http://reviews.cnet.com/5208-6130-0.html?forumID=50&threadID=91412&messageID=1037976&tag=

http://reviews.cnet.com/5208-6130-0.html?forumID=50&threadID=92004&messageID=1037727&tag=
Note that Anti-Bush and Anti-American are viewed as the same thing.

And my personal favorite.

Metzenbaum, Dean, Kennedy, etc...

they're still the core of the anti-American party, and they're losing the support of more and more real Americans by the day. And the wonder of it all is that the core thinks that to be successful they have to adhere more closely to their leftist roots, lol.
Dave Evans, Moderator.
http://reviews.cnet.com/5208-6130-0.html?forumID=50&threadID=91245&messageID=1028023&tag=

You're right Ed, nobody throws the accusation of Anti-American around loosely, not even here on SE.

Rob

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Pretty slim pickings
Apr 10, 2005 3:44AM PDT

It took you all this time to come up with THAT?

Okay, first of all, I don't have a standard response to your posts, and if it seems so, maybe it's because so many of your posts are the same old thing over and over (as I have pointed out before).

Not is my "standard" response often "hysterical, or crazed, or some other pejorative." Only when it's accurate, Rob. I strive for accuracy.

Secondly, your links show a smattering of the use of the term, rather than a constant or systematic use. And of then are from the same few people. You can always hit the "Offensive Post" button if a post offends you.

Thirdly, the fact is that anti-American and anti-Bush seentiment are not always mutually exclusive, They can and do go hand-in-hand sometimes.

And lastly, you hane NOT shown a single example of anyone in the media or society at large equating anti-Bushism and Anti-Americanism. What I said and maintain is that the Suzuki's (and by extension your) premise is wrong.

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Took me 3 minutes this afternoon, I don't live and die
Apr 10, 2005 5:58AM PDT

to post on this forum, I've been away for several days. So much for your vaunted accuracy.

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(NT) (NT) How does that reflect on my accuracy?
Apr 10, 2005 6:07AM PDT
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"It took you all this time to come up with THAT?"
Apr 10, 2005 8:25AM PDT

It took me no time to come up with that list and your statement that it took me a long time to produce it was wrong, I just wasn't reading or posting on SE.

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Okay, whatever you say,
Apr 10, 2005 12:33PM PDT

Who cares? I don't have you under surveillance. It was a long time in coming, alright?

And it is weak.

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(NT) (NT) in my opion of you your not an american in my eyes
Apr 10, 2005 3:50AM PDT
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What's the point of this post Mark? Its not as if any of us
Apr 10, 2005 5:55AM PDT

could forget your opinions because you post them over and over and over again. Given my opinions I don't think you'd ever acknowledge me as an American, even if I'd never moved away. You have a narrow definition of what it is to be American which, if rigorously applied, would probably expel over half the country. I just thank God that yours is such a tiny minority opinion.

Rob

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if that makes you happy beleave it
Apr 10, 2005 11:19PM PDT

and hope you like being the minorityGrin

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(NT) (NT) This subthread is closed.
Apr 10, 2005 8:33AM PDT
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And here's you echoing somebody elses allegation of my
Apr 10, 2005 3:29AM PDT
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(NT) (NT) and your constant usa bashing we find repulsive
Apr 10, 2005 3:51AM PDT
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Talk about hypocrisy
Apr 10, 2005 3:52AM PDT

Look at YOUR post that I was responding to. And no one called you anti-American, just pointing out your anti-American bias whch was on display for all to see. As I said, I STRIVE FOR ACCURACY.

Get off your high horse before he throws you.

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(NT) (NT) This subthread is closed, too !
Apr 10, 2005 8:34AM PDT
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An aside
Apr 8, 2005 3:21AM PDT

Not too long after the election; probably about the time Sukuki wrote his piece I was on a newsgroup. Not even a political newsgroup. It was a Photoshop group and I dared respond defending Bush to someone who posted the usual "Stupid Americans" crap. You wouldn't believe the torrent of abuse and obscenities that I had to endure. I had very few on my side. This, in my experience is far more common than what you describe.

SE is quite tame compared to other places like Usenet. If you find the climate oppressive, I respectfully suggest you stop coming here.

But I think, contrary to what you say you LIKE the contentious atmosphere here and would be bored silly if some of us didn't react to your never- ending provocations. There are lots and lots of places you could be where everyone agrees with you. I'd be sorry to see you go, but if it would make you feel better...

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I didn't get this,
Apr 8, 2005 4:20AM PDT

you posted 41 Conservatives and we couldn't come up with 41 Liberal names? Explain, I'll see what I can do.

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Here's two lists and an addendum.
Apr 10, 2005 3:45AM PDT
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Again with this stupid list
Apr 10, 2005 11:02PM PDT

Dan Rather
Peter Jennings
Tom Brokaw
Chris Matthews
Tim Russert
George Stephanopolous
Juan Williams
Mara Liason
Cici Connelly
The entire editorial staff of the NYT minus one
All the writers at Common Dreams
All the writers at The Nation

The lists can go on. What's the point? You are seriously deluded if you believe that the political media in this country is dominated by conservatives. The non-establishment media may be, and that is a good thing, because stunts like Rather's National Guard crap no longer are gotten away with. It boggles the mind thinking about how much disinformation we were spoonfed by the media back when the liberals had a lock on the dissemination of information.

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Sounds fair enough, to me
Apr 11, 2005 8:58AM PDT

even if they are mistaken Happy

Oftentimes, people hear something said that wasnt said. Examples would be where certain liberal politicians after being labeled as having 'bad judgement', would turn around and claim loudly and repeatedly in the press that conservatives had said they were anti-American. I guess thats politics, huh?