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OK............

by Del McMullen / September 15, 2004 1:36 PM PDT
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(NT) (NT) Good example of a forgery:) Thanks Del:)
by Glenda / September 15, 2004 1:46 PM PDT
In reply to: OK............
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Actually, quite a BAD example! ;-)
by Cindi Haynes / September 16, 2004 1:26 AM PDT
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Re: OK............
by jadinolf / September 15, 2004 6:38 PM PDT
In reply to: OK............

Those signatures must be the same since CBS said so.

Who are we to judge? Happy

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(NT) (NT) The second Killian was not Killian
by Catgic / September 15, 2004 9:28 PM PDT
In reply to: OK............
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Oh C'mon Del ...
by Evie / September 15, 2004 9:40 PM PDT
In reply to: OK............

... the documents might not be authentic but they forge actual events the way things could have happened according to some recollections! Stop trying to divert the issue from the STORY, the forged documents are irrelevant!


Oh wait!! This just in, Rather has done an about face: 'I Flat Out Lied' About Bush Memos

This satire is too close to the truth except the admission.

Evie Happy

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Re: OK............
by MKay / September 16, 2004 4:05 AM PDT
In reply to: OK............

I can't tell, even my own signature looks different to me at times. I think it probably has to do with my attitude, health, time of day and God knows what else.

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Re: OK............
by Josh K / September 16, 2004 4:08 AM PDT
In reply to: Re: OK............

Me too. If you look at two copies of my signature from different days, different circumstances (sitting in a comfortable chair vs. standing and being halfway out the door and signing something) there will probably be differences. I don't think the image proves anything one way or the other. I'm also not a handwriting expert and wouldn't presume to be able to tell by quick observation whether both of those signatures were made by the same person.

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Look at the capital J, Josh...
by J. Vega / September 16, 2004 4:32 AM PDT
In reply to: Re: OK............

Josh, look at the capital "J". See the distinction that stands out at first galnce? (top "bow" vs. "point") Yes, signatures can slighthy vary over time and/or writing conditions, but peculair habitual ways of forming some letters (especially the capitals) tend to remain the same over the years. Both my father and I have a peculiar way of writing a capital "J", and guess what, they strongly differ. You could look at examples of both his and mine over a 20 year period, and those two unusual letter formations would stand out over all those years. You could seperate his from mine in a big pile of them in a flash.
That's just one "quickie" point. Heavens, just the way that people tend make a period to "dot" a character can get complex, dot, dash, comma-shaped, etc. It's like fingerprints in a way, one line may not make the only match point, but the "points" build on the list of them.

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Re: Look at the capital J, Josh...
by Josh K / September 16, 2004 10:39 AM PDT

You could be right on the "J," J. Happy

Dan Rather interviewed Killian's secretary, the woman who would have typed the memos in question. She says that she did not type these memos, that the writing style is not consistent with hers. However she also says that the thoughts expressed in the memos do accurately reflect what Killian thought and believed about Bush. Not excusing the forgery if that turns out to be the case, but I thought it important to note this.

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You know, Josh...
by J. Vega / September 16, 2004 4:07 PM PDT

You know, Josh, something just hit me. I was serving in that period and with one exception I can't remember what the Squadron commander thought and believed about anybody. Curious that a secretary of way back then still remembers such about one of the Lt.s.
BTW, the one I do remember was because he was my pilot, and while I was O.D. sitting at a desk just outside of the Squadron Commander's office, I heard him and his assistant "badmouthing" him and saying that they were going to trash his OER. Not my pilot's "fault" that he happened to be a Mormon and gave his charity gifts thru his church rather than the current yearly "official" charity drive. I related that to show why I remember it, and I'll wager that many others here would have remembered it also if they were me sitting at that desk back then.

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Re: You know, Josh...
by Josh K / September 16, 2004 11:18 PM PDT
In reply to: You know, Josh...

People remember things for all kinds of reasons. I can remember little things that happened while I was bartending. Nothing really notable about the incidents or the customers but they just stuck in my memory for some reason.

Careful though, J. If you're going to question the secretary's credibility about her memory, then you also have to wonder whether she's really sure she didn't type those memos. Wink

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A week ago ...
by Evie / September 17, 2004 12:02 AM PDT
In reply to: Re: You know, Josh...

... she said she had no first hand knowledge of the events and memos. Now she was having little coffee clatches with the base commander discussing Bush. Oh, and she told the Dallas Morning News that Bush was unfit for command and "selected not elected". Wonder why Rather left that part out when characterizing his "credible voice".

CBS News: Fake but Accurate!

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So in other words....
by Josh K / September 17, 2004 12:17 AM PDT
In reply to: A week ago ...

...when she says that she did not type those memos, you really can't be too sure she's telling the truth, right?

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I guess so
by Evie / September 17, 2004 12:38 AM PDT
In reply to: So in other words....

What is most telling is how Rather presents his "credible voices", etc.

In any case, there is no need to believe Knox to believe these documents are fake. Her testimony only corroborates what anyone with eyes can see.

Evie Happy

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Not at all Josh...
by Edward ODaniel / September 17, 2004 5:27 AM PDT
In reply to: So in other words....

because an Air Force secretary would have inserted a regulation Signature Block without even pausing to think about it (line items, abreviations, and proper spacing and location per regulation).

Military rank abreviations would also have been proper.

There would have been no "Memo for file" as regulation requires it to be "Memorandum for Record".

Heading date would have been properly aligned and included office symbol (again per regulation).

Spacing between Memorandum line and subject line and between Subject line and initial paragraph would have been proper (again per regulation).

If she was a secretary on a military installation she would have immediately recognized that she could not possibly have typed the memos regardless of content.

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Re: Different sigs -- especially on those $%^ e-pads
by Dave Konkel [Moderator] / September 16, 2004 1:41 PM PDT
In reply to: Re: OK............

that you now have to use with credit cards at many stores (notably Walmart and Target).

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Re: OK............
by Evie / September 16, 2004 11:18 PM PDT
In reply to: Re: OK............

Hi Josh,

There are at least 4 signatures in the official Bush records with which to compare the two from the memos. Those alone should have raised an eyebrow, because they are over a period of years and, although not identical, quite consistent with regards to spelling out Jerry, the shape of the J, etc. Surely there are countless more official signatures available for this man. They jump out as inconsistent to me, and any handwriting expert worth his/her salt should have compared them to a "body of work", but Rather wanted to go with the story so he found one that was willing.

Evie Happy

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(NT) (NT) Then, I guess signatures prove nothing at all.
by Kiddpeat / September 17, 2004 1:49 AM PDT
In reply to: Re: OK............
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Re: OK............
by C1ay / September 16, 2004 11:06 PM PDT
In reply to: Re: OK............
I can't tell, even my own signature looks different to me at times.

My signature varies widely on circumstance but the initial letter "T" is consistant thru all. The remainder varies with the level of comfort and whether or not I am in a hurry.

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Question....
by TONI H / September 16, 2004 7:24 AM PDT
In reply to: OK............

How many people write memos to themselves and then SIGN them????????????

I can't see where any of these memos/documents actually WENT to anybody in particular and if they DID, where/who did they go to and why have those people hang onto them all these years and admit to being the ones who have had them?

TONI

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Actually I am ashamed...
by Edward ODaniel / September 16, 2004 11:55 AM PDT
In reply to: OK............

for not noting it before but the SIGNATURE BLOCK itself is a dead give-a-way. They had to conform to "Preparation and Management of Military Correspondence" and are ALWAYS in the format of either:

Name, Rank, Branch
Position

or (because the block was aligned left most character in document center if the name was too long)

Name
Rank, Branch
Position

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Re: Actually I am ashamed...that makes two of us!
by Paul C / September 16, 2004 12:11 PM PDT

How in hell did I miss that? I merely spent 20 years in the Air Force!

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Re: Actually I am ashamed...that makes two of us!
by David Evans / September 16, 2004 12:27 PM PDT

Sent an email to the last email address I have for you, hope it's still good.

DE

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