General discussion

No link yet but Toronto Police are discussing disarming most

foot patrols and having them equipped only with Tasers. Gun calls would be handled by the ETF (Emergency Task Force). Toronto cops have yet to voice any loud objections.

Rob

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Didn't work too well in London a while back
http://www.nothingtoxic.com/media/1159244377/Vicious_Beatdown_for_London_Cops

Not working too well in France.

Radical Muslims in France?s housing estates are waging an undeclared ?intifada? against the police, with violent clashes injuring an average of 14 officers each day.

As the interior ministry said that nearly 2,500 officers had been wounded this year, a police union declared that its members were ?in a state of civil war? with Muslims in the most depressed ?banlieue? estates which are heavily populated by unemployed youths of north African origin.

It said the situation was so grave that it had asked the government to provide police with armoured cars to protect officers in the estates, which are becoming no-go zones.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/10/05/wmuslims05.xml


Tom
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sorry to here that

they dont value the foot patrols livesSad

but i guess the crooks will respect thatSad

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Could reduce crime in the US

if our crooks move north where their ''work'' will be less dangerous. Happy

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I don't know how it is in Canada...

but in the US, criminals use guns and violence in general against unarmed citizens everyday. Is there some thought or research that demonstrates an unarmed policeman is less likely to be attacked by a violent criminal than an armed police officer? On the other hand, is the thought that this may stop misdirected/accidental violence committed by policemen since if they aren't armed they can't shoot someone?

Either way... I hope they give the foot patrolmen a raise.

grim

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(NT) (NT) and there faimally a good insurance coverage
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This is too ironic

COMMON SENSE BY PAUL JACOB

"Canadian writer Rondi Anderson says she was wrong about the usefulness of registering guns."

"Case in point: Kimveer Gill, the young thug who recently tried to commit mass murder at a Montreal college. His three weapons? All registered."

"Not more gun control; more support for the right to bear arms. If a few of those innocent bystanders had been armed when Gill decided to kill, he could have been stopped a lot sooner."

Whole story here:

http://www.getliberty.org/commonsense/cs1659.php

Tom

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Have spent a pleasant evening with 2 friends we made here

long ago, during Nancy's fellowship in internal medicine (Endoscopy) at the Wellesley Hospital. She a medical secretary who married an Ambulance driver. He Canadian born, but raised in England, joined the army at 17, did a couple of tours in Ireland. Came to Canada and did the Ambulance gig then joined the police. From there he joined the ETF (Emergency Task Force), the ones with MP5's and sniper rifles and did that for about 10 years, now he's with the Marine Unit which handles Toronto's Harbor and waterfront.

The point of this long preamble is that this is not your average "Treat them with kid gloves guy". I asked him how the guys on the street feel about the move to Tazers. He says they're much happier than with the potential fall out from a misdirected .40 round from a Glock, or a ricochet. And there will always be the ETF in one guise or another who get automatically dispatched to gun calls anyway. There have been a number of big gang roundups over the last 3 or 4 years which have netted huge numbers of firearms from certain neighborhoods. That doesn't mean those firearms don't get replaced, but the guys that owned them or were in possession of them don't get back out onto the street for years, like 10 to 20 for possession of an unlicensed firearm in conjunction with any other felony like the proceeds of crime or drug possession so the gangs are becoming decapitated and are losing their direction and cohesiveness. Hope these roundups continue. They are usually conducted by the ETF in large numbers with H&K MP5's and snipers on rooftops surrounding a housing project and then going through it apartment or house by house. There is no 4th Amendment here, though there is a fairly new Bill of Rights. What there is is Common Law stretching back to the Dark Ages, and judges who are not elected but are appointed for life and are expected to keep communities safe.

While you may think Canada is a liberal haven, you haven't seen how they sentence offenders over 17 here. Paul Bernardo, the Scarborough rapist and later murderer of two girls kidnapped for rape, torture and murder, lasted 10 days in general population before somebody pushed his face in. After he got out of the hospital ward, he went into solitary where he will stay until the day he dies.

His girlfriend did 8 of her 10 years and has chosen to stay in Quebec because she thinks she's less well known there than in English Canada ie the rest of the country. Apparently she still has a hard time, and much of English Canada is still disgusted at her light sentence even though she got it for rolling over on her husband (Bernardo) and telling the lawyer where the videotapes of the crimes were hidden.

All of that is, of course, by the way; Toronto policemen on the beat are happy with Tazers, and the ETF dropped a hostage taker just a few months ago without harming the girl in any way, all she knew was that the guy holding a sawed off rifle to her head had fallen down. I do hope Canadian crime, like American crime, continues to go down as it has since the early 90's thanks to the aging baby boom criminals who aren't as spry as they once were and are starting to think there may be an easier way to get along.

Rob

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Your site Tom, isn't a Canadian site and has its own agenda.

Canadian gun nuts can be found to complain about Canada's "onerous gun laws", even though gun ownership here is proportional by population to gun ownership in the US. A lot of Canadians, make that most Canadians, watch American TV and are more familiar with American laws than with their own, never the less it is still very easy to get a hunting weapon, and as can be seen in the Dawson College shooting they can legally get handguns and semi-autos too. Still Canadians don't generally resort to guns to sort out their problems, or their neighbours or even their wives. Canadians to the greatest extent expect the legal process to work, and expect to work things out eventually. Killing people is just not thought of as a response to anything. Now every society has its loonies.

How many people, had they been armed, could have stopped Todd Wittman. Look it up. None, because they needed to be in a helicopter. And that is true in almost every case, people are not trained to act and think like police in pressure ridden situations. And even in the hands of professionals at close range handguns are notoriously difficult to use effectively.

Mark posted a story many months ago about a jewelry store robbery where the clerk pulled a gun on the man trying to rob the store, then a policeman ran in with his gun drawn. I think 8 people were in the store, 40 shots were fired, and only one found its mark in the robber, and I don't think that one was fatal. That's 3 handguns in an enclosed space and only one person wounded after 40 rounds were expended. That's crazy, and that's exactly what a Tazer might have stopped since they've got that cute laser sighting mark that shows where the shot's going to go. Run in and shoot the robber in the back, end of story, cart him off to jail and charge him with reckless endangerment armed robbery and discharging a firearm in a public place, and make the sentences consecutive. He'll be in a walker before he gets out.

So your response is neither sense, nor common nor applicable to the Canadian, or even the American condition. How many University or College students in the US go around armed and well enough trained to get the gunman and not some innocent bystander? Especially when he's shooting at you. Novice hunters come down with "Buck Fever" when they catch sight of a White Tail in the woods and shoot up half of creation as the deer scampers away. Imagine if the deer were shooting at you first, you'd be more of a menace than a help.

Rob
I shot my share of deer when I was young, decided I didn't enjoy it and gave it up, though I still went out in the fall because it was a nice walk. However I killed a squirrel that was gnawing on the insulation in the roof of our front porch about a week ago, and was happy it was gone. Good shot too, air rifle, about 9:30 at night, by the light of the street lights illuminating the park across the road. And nobody anywhere in sight. A little over 30 yards which is long for an air rifle, but I've got a good scope. I chucked him on the railway tracks a block away and never looked back.

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Seems we're hearing about RISING gun/gang violence ...

... in Toronto and Canada. I don't think knowing that the entire police force (except for some special unit) is armed with TASERs only is going to do much to quell that.

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Well, the street cops wouldn't support the change if they

felt it would be a change that threatened them. The entire point of my addendum was that here is a guy with 30 years experience on the streets of Belfast, and Toronto, with long ETF experience who not only supports the move, but was asked the question, "How do the guys on the street feel about the change?" and he said "Great ..." and went into detail about why they feel good about it as noted above. What has increased in Toronto are gang shootings, moderately over the last 5 years, and gang arrests, enormously over the last 3-4 years. Overall crime statistics are down, overall murders are down, and the Police Department morale is high because of the new Gang Task Forces, and the major take-downs of whole crews. The last take-down involved 64 arrests in one relatively small geographic location. It remains to be seen if all of those arrested will do jail time, but large quanities of drugs cash and especially guns were seized. Semi-auto pistols (concealable) comprised the largest quantity in terms of type but there were lots of other items too. You can get an idea of what was seized if you go to YouTube and type in "Toronto gangs" apparently, though I have not done it.

Was reading the NYT Book Review a month or so ago where they reviewed a crime novel about smuggling of guns south, from Canada to the United States !!!! You know you're reading fiction when ...
Ahh well, somebody has to be the villain.

Rob

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i just hope

it never comes to be that your officer needs more than 2 shots or multy perps as hes unarmedSad

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