+++ NEED HELP on choosing a cam! +++

I'll have a short list up by the end of today. I can't remember if I already stated this but my previous MiniDV (which actually was a family cam) after roughly 2 years started eating tapes. Lastly I just didn't want to have to buy more tapes.

you last miniDV camera started eating the tapes. Bummer. We also don't know which manufacturer that was - I've been using 2 different miniDV camcorders for 5 years (Canon and Sony) and have not have not experienced that issue. We also don't know what tape you were using - I use Sony tapes. I do understand these issues happen - so I know I am not immune - it will probably happen someday.

So... if you get a flat tire, will you never buy from that auto manufacturer again? Sorry - the analogy just popped into my head.

I had the camcorder for roughly a year in half to probably 2 years before it unfortunately got an appetite for tapes. I'm trying to remember the model name but I know it was JVC. The tape brand I'm sure I'll never remember. And its not that I wont every buy from the same manufacturer (JVC) but staying with your analogy, if you have had trouble with stick-shifts it might makes sense for you to change over to an automatic and see what type of luck you have. Appreciate all the input so far. Like I said earlier hope to get a short list up soon.

that translates into miniDV tape... If your requirement changed from that, that's cool too... we just need to know what we're working with.

I had the camcorder for roughly a year in half to probably 2 years before it unfortunately got an appetite for tapes. I'm trying to remember the model name but I know it was JVC. The tape brand I'm sure I'll never remember. And its not that I wont every buy from the same manufacturer (JVC) but staying with your analogy, if you have had trouble with stick-shifts it might makes sense for you to change over to an automatic and see what type of luck you have. Appreciate all the input so far. Like I said earlier hope to get a short list up soon.

I had the camcorder for roughly a year in half to probably 2 years before it unfortunately got an appetite for tapes. I'm trying to remember the model name but I know it was JVC. The tape brand I'm sure I'll never remember. And its not that I wont every buy from the same manufacturer (JVC) but staying with your analogy, if you have had trouble with stick-shifts it might makes sense for you to change over to an automatic and see what type of luck you have. Appreciate all the input so far. Like I said earlier hope to get a short list up soon.

Alright well I really appreciate everything that your writen so far and acknowledge the superiority for the time being with miniDV in comparison to HDD and DVD.. but none-the-less due to my previous dealing with miniDV I just am looking to try something new But I did include a few to debate over..

So I've kind of lowered my price range since I know I need to look into a warantee and other things that are going to cost me an arm and a leg so here we go.

1. Sony SR300 40gb
2. JVC Everio GZMG555 5MP 30GB
3. Panasonic PV-GS500
4. Canon HV10 3.1MP
5. Panasonic SDR-H18
6. JVC Everio GZ-MC500
7.


I know this is probably on another forum but what are the advantages and disadvantages of CMOS and 3CCD? And if anyone doesnt like the ones I picked convince me why I need to get the Canon HV20 3MP or something else that you would advocate

Panasonic SDR-H200

Drop the JVCs... After that the only one with any method for an external mic is the SR300 (through the proprietary active interface shoe). And I would suggest (because you knew I would) that you also take a look at the HDR-HC5 or HC7.

On the difference between CCD and CMOS... My opinion - pure technicals aside - the "biggest deal" is CMOS is a newer technology and uses a little less power. As for imaging, I have been on shoots with my HDR-HC1 (single CMOS; shooting in 4:3 - by default, standard definition) and the other shooters used Panasonic DVX100 and Canon XL2s (both CCD based rigs)... also set to 4:3. Video was shot outdoors in daylight and indoors with stage lighting. We all white balanced at the same time on the same white card... and the (very experienced) editor could not tell which video came from which camcorder...

Why should you consider the HV20? It has a proper 1/8 inch (3.5mm) external mic jack.

Ok well I've thought it over and I've more or less given into raising my budget on the camera lol. Its a bad idea but I went into best buy just to get a feel for some of the cameras in my hand.

So new short list. Let me know what you think, pros and cons.

SONY HDR-CX7 (in a love hate relationship with the memory stick)
SONY HDR-SR5 (kind of not feeling this one as much)
CANON HG10

ALRIGHT MURDER THE LIST!!!

Feel free to tear this list apart. I talked earlier in the forum about warrantees but I guess no one wants to talk about that. Best Buy, while over priced compared to online stores but they do have a price match policy that I'm looking into, offers a 4 year accidental warrantee that I feel is probably the best that I have seen out there. So my list is composed of the products they offer. I know it cuts down my options but I just need to feel comfortable with a nice warrantee when making an investment like this.

The Sony HDR-CX7. No moving parts like a spinning hard drive... Not real thrilled with the "proprietary" Sony memory sticks, but maybe that does not matter to you - I think Panasonic has a cam that uses SD memory that you can use in other electronic gear (but their web site is "under construction", so no link... sorry).

Be advised that all of these units compress their high definition video using AVCHD (miniDV tape does not use AVCHD - but HDV). Standard definition DV (4:3 or 16:9) does not use AVCHD to compress.

http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9746777-1.html?tag=blog.5 will be of interest to you.

I think that I'm going with the Sony HDR-CX7. I agree with Wiz and think that solid state memory is the future and before one, two, or three years I wouldnt be surprised to see a 16GB or 32GB card that will be make the models like this much more attractive.

Alright one last question though. Its not that big of a deal to me but I was wondering how I find out if this camera is compatible to use some type of helmet cam. i was thinking about some cool projects I could do with such an accessory and got excited.

I know that there arent as many ports in this model but I just dont know how I go about finding out if that might be a possibility through the hot shoe of some other way..

Thanks a lot for all the posts!

Check the Sony specs...
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665089063

Refer to:
Analog Audio/Video Input(s)
N/A

The proprietary active interface is for audio in only (and power for a proprietary video light). There is no FireWire connection and the USB will most likely not work because it is in the base station.

If you shoot in hidef and want to edit in high def, please be sure your video editing application can handle AVCHD from Sony.

Turn Digital zoom off.

What cam would have an input like that? As I mentioned from the beginning I'm a true novice, but even your prized HDR-HC7 doesn't have the analog audio/video input..

Sony DCR-HC96 comes to mind - the easiest way to determine this is to see the "compatible cameras" lists at the helmet cam manufactuer sites. The nice thing about the HC96 is it has a LANC port, too.

I wouldn't expect the HC7 to have it - the video in for helmet cams is generally an analog composite signal - so why feed such low quality into a hi-def cam? If someone makes a FireWire or component or HDMI helmet cam, then the video quality will meet that of the camcorder... and the camcorder firmware will need to be modified to accept the signal from those ports...

Personally, if I wanted a "helmet cam" I would not use my HDR-HC1 or any camcorder, for that matter... I would use something built to do that job... like this:
http://helmetcameracentral.com/category/equipment/helmet-cams/
Waterproof (dustproof, etc), smaller than a camcorder, wireless start-stop (as opposed to the wired LANC on certain specific camcorders) that does not require line-of site like infrared remotes do...

the HV20 takes analog in... the HC7 may, too - you can check the Sony site.

That is unless you don't want to buy those "uber-proprietary" Memory Sticks.

Eventually, Flash memory camcorders will take precedence over HDD and miniDV, but it won't happen for a while due to two reasons: 1) small storage space and 2) price. Once flash memory gets to where HDDs are now in storage space and price, it will be a much easier decision for buyers.

Also, if you read that article posted above, look at all those choices you have for AVCHD editing. Also see what people have to say in the comments near the bottom.

Warrantee: With such a large investment of money, one accident could leave you out $1400 so, yes, a warrantee is very much necessary. I would suggest you look into those provided by Sony before buying the plan from Best Buy. Companies are sometimes known to give better warrantees than retail stores.

tape's been around a few years longer than the HDD units - so there are probably more tape-based cameras out there (including analog BETA, full-sized VHS, VHS-C, 8mm, Hi8 and Digital8 - in addition to miniDV) which would contribute just to raw numbers of folks who might experience any sort of issue. (As an aside, I was surprised the other day - I saw a newspaper insert from a large national retail chain with an ad for a VHS-C camcorder.)

Having been an IT manager, I know I depend on digital tape for important data backups - and I have lived through too many laptop hard drive issues to want to experience loss of a hard drive before transferring data - though DriveSavers (and a few others) have made a very robust business from folks who depend on their hard drives (including HDD camcorders).

I know hard drives are fragile, but better care can reduce the risk significantly. Yes, I do know about MTBF. I guess I've been a lucky one considering I haven't had a hard drive crash on me yet. My 2.11 gig Seagate is still lasting me after 10 years.. (Knocking on wood! )

I was checking some reviews on that camera and seemed to only see positive feedback. I have just begun looking at cameras and am not exactly familiar with Sony's most recent update to that model. What would you say is the current equivalent?

The SR200 and 300 are the replacements. I wouldn't necessarily call them major upgrades because they somehow thought of a reason to omit the viewfinder and lack some other much needed features. They do however have a new menu system, and the video quality has improved from the reviews and comments I've seen.

Mine has been very reliable and simple to use. No complaints here.

I just really like the HDD vs optical memory. I know that I can purchase dvd-rw's to write to and rewrite to but at some time or another I can see the discs scratching or in some way getting messed up and having to buy more and more dvd's overtime. I know hard drive failure is relatively frequent, exactly why many different friends have ipods that have failed, but my experience with my personal products, Ipods and externals that I have bought in the past, have been really reliable and every easy to just hook up and transfer the digital data. I guess HDD just seem to be the most user friendly when I know that I would be moving nearly all footage onto a pc for editing. Could be wrong but tell me why Sorry about the repeated posts earlier, my browser kept saying broken connection and I resubmitted

on the concept of using a hard drive or optical media or even memory cards. But the actual implemenation that we see due to the compression of the digital video in order to fit that media leave the quality of the video lacking - and the compresison used for miniDV tape is not very much... which results in it's superior video quality. Since you have told us you want to edit, and if you don't mind not getting the best quality available, I would suggest sticking with hard drive based camcorders.

"User friendly" is subjective.

1) Capture video. Not camcorder storage media dependent.
2) Transfer video to computer.
HDD (or memory card) based: use USB and copy files. Delete files from camcorder.
MiniDV tape based: use FireWire to import video. Lock tape, note contents on label, store.
Note: HDD file transfer will be faster because you are just copying files from one hard drive to another. For miniDV tape, standard definition video import is generally real-time, high definiton will take longer than real-time. How much longer is CPU dependent.
3) Edit video. Not camcorder storage media dependent.
4) Save the project and export to DVD. Not camcorder storage media dependent.
5) Make backup of finished project.
HDD (or memory card) camcorders, this is whatever back-up mechanism/process you use for your computer.
MiniDV tape based camcorders: Export the project back out to the camcorder and archive that digital tape.
6) Delete project from computer. Not camcorder storage media dependent.

One item to note, typically, if you have lots of short clips (start and stop the camcorder), both camcorder types will be similar - you will end up with lots of short clips on your computer. If you have long video clips (a long performance, a quarter of football, whatever) where you do not stop the camera, miniDV tape will give your video application a long video clip. The HDD based camcorder will segment that long clip into shorter clips which you will need to stitch back together in your video editing application in order to make that long clip back to where it was. Not a big deal - but you should at least know about this.

And... if you did not back up the files on your computer (step 5) from the HDD camcorder and you deleted them from the camcorder and the computer, you have no archive... in case you want to go back and use footage you had not used or another project comes up or your disc rots or gets scratched and you did not make a back-up (non-used) copy... whatever - but with the miniDV tape, that original tape IS your archive along with the exported (to tape) final video. If you are regularly in the habit of having multiple copies of your data stored, that is great - most folks don't.

So... in my mind, the media used by the camcorder has very little to do with "ease of use" and the only place you really save any time is in the transfer process - which is really a very small part of the whole thing... So... this wraps us all the way back around to... whats the difference? The difference is in the video quality.

I have been a Sony Hi 8 owner for a long while, and though I don't like just going out and buying the big name brand, it does seem like whatever another company does or starts, Sony will do it right. I started looking at HDD camcorders last year, I saw ads for, I think the JVC Evio or something like that. I looked at the reviews on multiple post and found about a 50/50 love/hate split, mostly because of video quality. I figured anything with that high of a hate split is something to stay away from. Then I came accross the Sony line and it wasn't till I looked at them for a while that I realized they didn't put a view finder on them. For me, this was a major blunder by Sony and stopped my looking right then. I had quickly glanced at their HD HDD camcorder that was newly out and believe it did have one but that was out of my budget.

Well, a year later and I just had another battery die and am about to run out of tapes. Both of which are relatively cheap but I too would like to start burning DVD's for family and am faced with capturing the video I already have from the analog tapes to digital format (that's another post). Video quality is only relatively important to me, having something easier that actaully will get used is more important.

My hesitation on mini DVD's is ease of use for my wife and having to flip disk's mid-event. I think that puts me in a boat with the original poster as far as what I'm looking for and budget wise but I also realize that there is no one absolute answer to the question or else there wouldn't be so many different camcorders out there. I guess it's time to start researching again though in all honesty, I was hoping Sony would just come out with a design change and add a view finder. Oh well.

you really should start with the best available quality video - the follow-on steps during the video process can degrade that quality... If you start with mediocre quality video and degrade that during the edit process, it it just makes mediocre even worse. On top of that, watching your edited video on a large screen will only emphasize that poor quality.

I would strongly recommend against any consumer DVD-based camcorder. You might not be planning on editing now... I refuse to accept any more editing requests from friends who use DVD-based camcorders. After the first couple of times of, "can't you make it look better", it just gets uncomfortable. I agree with you on the "flip the disc after 20 minutes" (if you were smart enough to get double sided discs) - plus this forum has lots of "how do I get to the video from the disc to my computer" and pleas for help on failed or problem discs... By the way, I specified "consumer" - I'm pretty sure I don't want to try to afford this camera, but at nearly $15,000 (new) I suspect the video quality in this one http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/minisites/cinealta/shoot/pdwf330.shtml is pretty good.
http://www.simonwyndham.co.uk/Sony-PDW-F330-XDCAM-HD-review.html
http://www.dv.com/reviews/reviews_item.php?articleId=196602592

Consumer hard drive and memory card based machines use the same recording formats, hence the same video quality. Please do not misunderstand... I am not saying these give bad quality. Quite the contrary, they can provide good quality... but for now, not "best" quality. And buying one of these units today will not move me to "best quality" when the technology changes - I will be stuck with today's technology. It should be noted that there are external hard drives available for FireWire-equipped camcorders (see Firestore.com and others) that can record using the same format used by miniDV tape, but they are expensive. Also, the Panasonic AG-HVX200 uses P2 memory cards, but both the camcorder and the memory cards are pricey. I *think* the JVC Everio line does have one higher-end internal hard drive based camcorder that uses the same file format as miniDV, but it is just too bad the rest of the camera does not measure up.

Like it or not, "Best video quality" continues to be the domain of miniDV tape. Could this change in the future? Sure. But buying another technology now, in hopes of "future proofing" does not work - new cameras with the new and improved technology will replace the (non-miniDV tape) camcorder purchased today.

And as far as "ease of use" across the different formats - well, based on the earlier post in this thread, I just don't see it - maybe faster transfer, but "easier"? I don't think so.

I do like the fact, even with my HI-8 that I have an automatic backup, something I would have to get in the habbit of creating with the HDD camcorder. A question though, after a quick look at the Best Buy web site I see that both the MiniDV and HDD have about the same resolution, 520 - 540 on various cameras, were is the quality loss on the HDD and is it just dependent on the setting you use for recording? It seems even the HDD's have different speeds.

I do like the price difference also, I wouldn't feel so bad about dropping $300 now and in a few years want to upgrade again as compared the the $700 to $900 for the HDD camcorders. Are there any connections in particular I should look for on the camera? It looks like they all have the IEEE 1394 (I'm guessing fire wire) and iLink. Some also have USB and the Sony DCR-HC48 has a dock, would these be overaly useful or not? Also, just some quick glances to Cnet and Best Buy, I see some models from Panasonic PV and SDR lines and the Canon line (which didn't seem to rate as high though like the ZR850).

Oh well, I guess it's time to get out of this chair and go do some hands on. One quick last question, going back and forth between what Best Buy is selling (only using them as reference since I can go put my hands on the camera)and what Cnet has reviewed aren't matching very well. Are there some other good web sites for camcorder reviews?