General discussion

National Anthem Banned At College

Well, it is a religious college and maybe they ONLY answer to a higher authority, to borrow a phrase from an all beef Jewish hot dog commercial. Might I suggest America The Beautiful to be used instead? It should be our national anthem anyway. This is another "Russellite" spinoff like the Jehovah Witness. An interesting read also about Eisenhower's association with one or both groups.

Goshen College will no longer play The Star-Spangled Banner at sporting
events, school leaders announced, reversing last year's decision to
allow the use of the national anthem for the first time in the Mennonite
college's history.

Some Mennonites had criticized the anthem's lyrics as glorifying war and
offensive to the school's pacifist traditions. Goshen's Board of
Directors said many felt the school's "allegiance should be to Christ
rather than to country."

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I remember that about Ike

and it seemed to conflict with his being a General in the US Army. But I think we need to remember that parents will tend to bring up their children in their own faith and those children, as they approach adulthood, might find that something just doesn't fit. I think Nixon was also supposed to have been a Quaker but never saw him dressed like the guy on the oatmeal box.

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So, what's that say about Obama?

Raised in the Muslim faith?

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I believe the facts surrounding that are sketchy at best

He reportedly attended both Muslim and Catholic schools as a young child. It's probable that these schools offered the best if not the only general education where he was living at the time. It's also possible that the Muslim school wasn't truly Muslim at all but a more public school with a population of students that were overwhelmingly from Muslim families. At that age, I don't think it's possible to make what might be called a true "profession of faith". There aren't any 5 and 6 year old Catholics, Muslims, Jews, etc. no matter what faith they are being exposed to. I remember, in my own church, there being a term called "the age of reason" which was to generally begin about age 7. I don't know how this was derived. It was really considered as the age when a child could be taught a faith properly and have some understanding of what was being put forth. It was also the age when a child might start raising intelligent questions. But the child was, at that point, still many years from being capable of the decision to continue in that faith. The next age, as I recall, was somewhere around that we first hear of Jesus amazing the Rabbis in the temple with his wisdom. Whether or not that was the reason for the selection of this age in my church is something I don't know. In the Catholic Church, full admission can come at around age 13 but sometimes comes much later. I'm fairly comfortable with those guidelines for all young people regardless of the faith they eventually choose. Barack Obama was much younger and, unless he was a practicing Muslim in his teens, was not a true member of that faith. Just my own thoughts.

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When it comes to Mr. Obama

It appears that James is less interested in facts than he is in innuendo. Any weakly supported negative claim about Mr. Obama MUST be true.

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It is my understanding that

he was just starting school when his mother married an Indonesian and moved there. When she moved back there when he was older, he stayed with her parents to go from the rest of elementary school through high school in Hawaii. His mother spent most of his life in Indonesia but wanted her son to have the best education she could give him.

What I'm trying to say is that his time in Indonesia was very short when he was very young.


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What's it say about Obama?? Absolutely nothing.

You really don't get any of it do you? Having been to schools in several different countries isn't like being stuck in a madrasa in Pakistan. It's just education. And in Kenya, the schools are as often Christian or Non-Denominational as they are Muslim.

Do you mind posting a link from any reliable source (that lets out your normal sources like Andrew Breitbart) that says he went to a Muslim religious school?, or did he just go to a school with Muslims as well as other faiths.


You're quick with a diagnosis, Dr. Bill, how would you characterize James" obsessive behaviour in this and so many other matters? Is he paranoid about Obama? or just annoyed about Obama. [Since it passes many by, that was word play]

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In his book...

In his book Dreams from My Father, didn't Obama write "In the Muslim school, the teacher wrote to tell mother I made faces during Quranic studies"?

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Ah, so you endorse...

...putting Christian beliefs and Bible studies back into the public school systems here? You may be on to something there!

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An attempted denial?
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While I can't agree with it personally

given it's a private, religious college, I'm actually a bit disappointed that apparently there was so much negative feedback locally that it probably felt pressured to issue a conciliatory statement.

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(NT) Good points.
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I agree about who serves

I wouldn't want anyone there unless they'd wanted and agreed to be there, especially wouldn't want draftees, although they might be better in a situation where you needed someone to cover your back in a fire fight. Still, I hope the armed services never activate a draft again.

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About Mennonites

They can be confused with Amish but you may have not heard of them either. There is a relationship between the two but differences as well. Here's more;

Amish tend to have their own communities but Mennonites might live about anywhere there's one of their churches nearby. Their dress is very plain and the women (and men) often wear distinctive head gear. Here's store you can shop from and play dress up if you wish. Devil

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BTW, and since you're a MOD

If you think my last sentence and link to a legitimate business site in a mocking manner is not in good taste, please put white out on that line. Thanks

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Not a problem

and in fact I ordered one of the blue dresses.

Er... for a friend! Happy

Thanks for the information about the Mennonites. I did know about the Amish, and even saw the film, (Witness with Harrison Ford and Kelly McGillis).


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My wife and I are still laughing our heads off

I was wanting to order he one of the blue dresses as well but she thinks it looks more like a granny's nightie. Happy

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Glad I made you both laugh!

I just want you to know am not a cross-dresser. My dresses remain in the closet, (um, wardrobe!) Devil


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I knew you couldn't be telling the truth

I suspect your color choice would have been red. Happy

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Oh timely
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You may be right, but ...

If, as alleged, there were "no rules broken" the school's response was wildly inappropriate. I'm glad my principal didn't take that attitude back in 6th grade when I went to school dressed as a witch for halloween.

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I saw the maple syrup

One place where we lived, a gallon of maple syrup would appear on the doorstep each year. No note or name or return address. We just used it and it was fantastic.

PS the Amish are a very conservative sect of the Mennoites.


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For Mark, about Mennonites. They're of Dutch origin,

but not to be confused with Pennsylvania Dutch or Amish both of whom are of German origin. Belief in plain living to the point of refusing electrical powered machinery preferring wind and water power. Often decline to use cars, and travel by horse and buggy.

They like the Amish are pacifist. Roger, it's a religious belief, it must be tolerated and accepted, it's part of the Constitution's First Amendment. Personal opinion doesn't enter into it.

The communities of Kitchener and Waterloo west of Toronto, originally Berlin and Waterloo until WW1, have a large Mennonite community of much more liberal car driving (still mostly black, sometimes even with the chrome sprayed black) folk who predominate in the Kitchener Farmer's Market which people drive 200 miles round trip to attend. Fresh produce, wonderful arts and crafts, a really pleasant atmosphere. I was considering moving there just a few months ago in the hope that rents might be cheaper, except my son and everybody I know is here.


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Tolerated and accepted
it must be tolerated and accepted, it's part of the Constitution's First Amendment. Personal opinion doesn't enter into it.

And I never said different. I said I personally thought pure (or extreme if that helps) pacifism was naive at best. That is personal opinion, and it has nothing to do with tolerating or accepting someone else's belief. It doesn't matter if I consider a belief naive, wrong, or anything else. As long as it doesn't adversely affect others not of the belief, you have a right to it. I don't have to accept the belief as correct, or even rational. That's my personal right. So personal opinion as to the correctness, soundness, or viability of a belief does enter into it in that sense.
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From Mennonites to Obama's putative Muslim educ. in one jump

Can you even help yourself from baiting, James. Apparently pathology is where you find it.

I went to high school with Mary Ann Baker, and a smarter, lovelier, more delightful person you have never me. She wore Mennonite dress to school completely unremarked by anyone except for the respect we had for her. All the Bakers in one small area were Mennonite.


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Why do you insist

on taking one observation and using it to slam the whole group? Since I didn't do that, it must be you. I noted nothing other than FACT about their policy. YOU twist that into something more. That makes YOU responsible for anything beyond that. How fallacious you then accuse others of baiting when you sit there with hook and line in the water, waiting. I don't know who Mary Ann Baker is, I don't know what her clothing has to do with what I posted, and I'm sure many Mennonite Brethren are fine people, but that doesn't change the FACT which I posted. Apparently they aren't ashamed of their stand, why should you be? You really get things twisted around, don't you? Playing too hard to the audience?

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Mennonite women wear a starched cheese-cloth like head cover

ing which is very similar to that seen in Dutch painting of the 16th through 19th Centuries, but undecorated in any way. Bangs show, and hair is kept relatively short (collar length) so that the head covering covers most of the hair, the ears are covered but the head covering is worn loosely on the head, held by pins.

A vague sense of it might be found in the movie Witness, with Harrison Ford, but that is about the Amish in Pennsylvania. Still it gives the idea.


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Yes, but...

Yes, but do you know the humorous nickname that they gave it? A lot of people in this country have heard about the Mennonites.

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