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General discussion

My view re: 'The Passion':

Feb 26, 2004 9:31AM PST

Well, as promised, here's my brief report. 1) Anyone who takes a child under, say, 16 to this film should be immediately arrested for child abuse. The film is very, VERY graphic in its violence - and it's not the cartoon violence we so often see in movies. 2) The film, IMO is NOT anti-Semitic. I doubt that seeing it will turn someone who's not so inclined into a Kluxer or neo-Nazi (although I concede that someone who already is anti-Semitic may have his attitude reinforced). 3) It's not really a preaching tool for pastors. While historically accurate and almost always scripturally accurate, IMO, I doubt that it makes a good persuader. Of course, I'm of the opinion that Mel Gibson wasn't intending it as such. A local film critic used the phrase "preaching to the choir" in her review. That may be an oversimplification (as this post may be; I'm still trying to sort all this out, folks), but there's a grain of truth there. 4) It is very powerful in its portrayal. When it ended, everyone got up and left in near total silence; the last time I remember that happening after the showing of a film was Schndler's List. The thing just grabs hold and refuses to let go. 5) Schindler's List gave me the same reflection as did The Passion: that it's so very easy to do evil, and so difficult to do right. If this film provokes a larger discussion on the nature of good and evil in the modern world, then it will have achieved a worthy purpose far in excess of what Mel Gibson possibly intended.

The Passion simultaneously challenges your intellect, rips at emotions and gets you to think long and hard about issues of faith and morals. It's well worth the $8.50, so go see it already!

Discussion is locked

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I certainly am one looking forward to seeing it, Paul
Feb 26, 2004 9:50AM PST

I appreciate your insightful review.

Like I stated in a previous post I made (to the thread regarding the woman who reportedly died of a heart attack during the crucifixion scene), I remember much of the same "uproar" when the movie "The Exorcist" came out. I was only about 12 years old at that time, but my folks owned a store, so I was privy to several newspaper and magazine headlines then. The outcry regarding this movie appears so similar, IMO. I continue to regard The Exorcist as a classic.......who knows, maybe The Passion will end up on that list also.

Thanks, Paul,


Marcia

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The film, IMO is NOT anti-Semitic. I doubt that seeing it will turn someone who's not so inclined into a Kluxer or neo-Nazi
Feb 27, 2004 10:54PM PST

I don't think so either Paul. The bible story has been around for centuries, and it has always been known that the Jews didn't think he was the messiah.
Absolutely nothing new with that, so why should the film cause any such problems, apart from the hot heads among us who will cause trouble at the drop of a hat.
I wouldn't personally see the film because I get no enjoyment, or anything else from seeing blood thirsty violent behaviour. It happened back then, because it's very well known what the romans were capable of.
It wasn't the last time that they persecuted the christians. Thousands of christians were fed to the lions as a bit of entertainment. Sad
Thanks for taking the time to give us an insight into what we would expect to see.
Steve

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Talking of Romans and Lions - just found this great link with some great stories Part 1
Feb 28, 2004 12:20AM PST
http://wildnetafrica.co.za/wildlifearticles/zoologic/1998/lionlegend.html

Androcles was the hero of a 2nd century story told by Aulus Gellius. The story goes that Androcles, a Roman slave, ran away from his cruel master and hid in a cave. While he was inside the dimly lit den, Androcles heard a strange growl and, to his shock, saw a lion enter (lions are found mainly in Africa with a few in India, but could well have lived in this part of the world). The poor slave shuddered, certain that he would die at the hands of a beast such as this. And he was not wrong. Lions, after all, are carnivores. The word "carnivore" comes from two Latin words - "carnis" which means "meat" and "vorare" which means "to eat or devour". Did you know that a lion has teeth - 32 in all -best suited to eating meat, with incisors for biting and lifting prey and canines to pierce the wound flesh? So, of course Androcles was terrified. Wouldn't you be?

But the story continues - the lion did not attack Androcles. Instead, and rather surprisingly, he raised his paw and showed the man a large thorn that was embedded in it. Androcles reached out, took the beast's paw and drew the thorn out of the soft flesh. Then, in silence, the lion turned and left the cave.

It gets even better -see link
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Part 2 - Talking of Romans and Lions - just found this great link with some great stories Part 1
Feb 28, 2004 12:25AM PST
http://wildnetafrica.co.za/wildlifearticles/zoologic/1998/lionlegend.html

Now that is what I call strong - Hercules - Hells bells !!!!!!!!

The Nemean Lion
In Greek mythology, Hercules was considered to be the strongest hero, having said to have strangled two serpents while he was still a baby in his cot! When he grew up he was ordered to perform 12 feats of strength called the "Twelve Labours of Hercules". The first was to slay a lion, which had been ravaging the Valley of Nemea, killing men and animals. Hunter after hunter had died trying to kill the lion. Hercules went to seek him alone. He stood outside the lion's lair and called him to come and fight. When the cat appeared, he shot arrows into the tawny, maned body and beat the lion with a stout club but this was in vain. After he threw his weapons away, Hercules seized the lion's neck between his hands and strangled the powerful beast. Then, lifting the carcass to his shoulders, he carried the lion back in triumph. Even though the lion died, the animal's power was affirmed, for Hercules was seen as the personification of physical strength and courage and the Nemean lion was set in the heavens in honour of the feat. The large constellation of "Leo" lies south of Ursa Major and directly north of the equator, with one of the brightest stars in Leo, Regulus - "the heart of the lion." The lion was honoured in the heavens for all eternity.
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Have 3 tickets for Sunday afternoon
Feb 28, 2004 12:04AM PST

Wife and I, picking up Mom from nursing home. I guess it's good her eyesight isn't as good as before. Not sure how much fun it will be whispering the subtitles to her. I will do half the movie for her, wife the other half.

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Hi James - I am really pleased to here that your mum is on the move again. That's great :) NT
Feb 28, 2004 12:11AM PST

NT

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Well, that's debatable.
Feb 28, 2004 8:19AM PST

I stopped by there today, it was beautiful weather and in the 60's so she was able to be wheeled outside with a light blanket over her. While sitting out there a resident from across the hall was being wheeled out to an undertaker's van. Got to be depressing. I spoke to the staff and ordered them to NOT give her any laxative between then and when I pick her up tomorrow. The place we go is stadium seating but they do have a flat area for wheelchairs down front. I don't like sitting that close to the screen, so I'm going to ask if we can enter ahead to get Mom setup. If so I think we can get her to the center aisle that has a good area in front of it and better to view the screen from. I also need to remember to bring a paper tube to use as a whisper tube to read the subtitles to her. I was joking with the wife and said if Christ could endure the cross we could endure tomorrow, and hey, it might go smoothly anyway.

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Re:Well, that's debatable.
Feb 28, 2004 9:07AM PST

Dear James

I often wish that they would sell resilience at the local store so that we and our older folks could get a top-up as respectively required. Assuming that will not happen by Sunday afternoon, my best wishes that the weather holds good for you.

Regards
Mo

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Sorry that your mom is still fairly weak
Feb 28, 2004 12:19PM PST

I gather that her condition is permanent, and for that I am deeply sorry for you.
The nice thing for your mom is to know that her son is by her side, although for all practical reasons you obviously cannot be there 24/7.
I don't know the ins and outs of your mom's condition, but what I do know is all the time that you are with her she finds that to be a great comfort.
Give her a big kiss from all of us in Speakeasy.
God Bless
Steve

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Re:Sorry that your mom is still fairly weak
Feb 29, 2004 11:33AM PST

Her kidney problem is permanent of course, as is her diabetes, but she has shown some improvement. I'm worried about the tylenol #3 they give her interfering with her thinking at times. It has codeine in it and they give her at least one every day. She claims she needs it for pain, but I tend to doubt that is the reason. I have to speak with them about that.

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You're a good son, James. Your mom is richly blessed. -NT
Feb 28, 2004 7:53PM PST

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Thanks. I saw the movie this evening.
Feb 29, 2004 11:11AM PST

I had got somewhat to the point of dreading the evening, not knowing how it would be trying to get Mom setup in the theatre, not knowing if they would let me take her in first, and worried Mom might have bowel problems interfering with the outing.

The night went just great. I wonder if it was deliberate, but the young man (mid 30's) controlling the entrance to the movie looked just like the Jesus character in the movie, and of the same nature. He was very understanding, offered several alternatives, even an elevator to the upper area, and for us to seat her first. Not everyone was pleased we got to the front of the line, but the alternative would have been struggling and blocking people racing for the best seats.

Some of those waiting in line were sort of impatient and short tempered, not quite what I would have expected for such a movie. When we got to the front of the line I spoke with the woman there who was already having some sort of "experience" I think. She said this was her 3rd time to see the movie. Now, this was the 5th day of the movie since opening. I asked her why she wanted to see it 3 times. Oddly, she said the first time she didn't get the seats she wanted so felt she had been "cheated", and the second time she also got "cheated", so this time she had shown up 2 hours early, even before the line was starting, checked it with the usher so she could be in the very front and get the "perfect" seat. Now THAT is obsession!


They had marked all the tickets to make sure nobody with the wrong ticket sneaked past them and Mom and we got ushered in first. I had wanted to get her up some stairs to the middle landing in the stadium seating which has more room in front people. I didn't want people trying to stumble over Mom's feet and maybe hurting her. After managing 3 steps up from the lower landing she said she wouldn't be able so we sat in a row that had a protection bar on it that she used to move to the middle of the row and we put the wheelchair folded up at the front of room. Sitting in the middle no one had to stumble past us, so that part of the night was great.

Mom said not to disturb others reading the subtitles since she knows the story quite well and even without being able to read all of them she knew what was being said or should have been said anyway. For anyone who knows the gospel records (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) the film being in a foreign language is almost unnoticed other than the authenticity it lends. You may find yourself not even reading the subtitles at some of the most well known parts. It doesn't detract as much as it seems to add to the movie.

I can say that 2 hours later I was surprised to see it had been that long, the movie was so entrancing. It's definitely not for the squeamish, I noticed one girl behind us down that row sobbing during one scene. They said everything in the movie was scriptural, but in some areas there was a lot of interpolation. I don't think that detracted from it however. There were several phrases I expected to hear that were never uttered, and I mean other than the one about "his blood be upon us and upon our children".

It's a great movie and don't let my following comments be the basis if dissauding one from seeing it. I felt they made Pilate look a little less guilty than they should have. They also placed the high priest in some scenes in areas I doubt he himself would have been, if for no other reason than avoidance of ritual uncleanness. I won't go into detail at this time. For the pass they gave Pilate, they made up for it in the Roman scourging of Christ and his treatment by the Roman soldiers.

Was it Anti-Semitic? Against the Jewish race no. Against the Jewish leaders of that day the movie was definitely harsh. Even knowing the outcome of it, you find yourself fantasizing about Pilate putting Caiphas on the cross instead. I would say it isn't anti-Semitic, but more against the Jewish leadership of that time. It's made fairly obvious in the movie there is a line drawn between them and the Jewish people at large.

After the movie Mom insisted on visiting a restaurant there at the mall, so she got a prime rib meal. She's not supposed to have much meat, but I got a salad and kept sneaking some of the meat so she only got about half while thinking she ate the whole thing, LOL. She held up fine through the movie and although weak was able to ride in the front seat of the van both ways, rather than needing the wheel chair lifted in and out. Hopefully this will encourage her to work harder in recovery.

PS - If you go see this movie, think about NOT eating during it. I found that distracting and once the movie started many didn't seem to feel like finishing what they had started. You also don't want to miss any of it having to head to the restroom. It is a very intense movie, and the sensitive should take a few tissues.

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James - it doesn't open here until 26 March ...
Feb 29, 2004 7:11PM PST

so very interesting to read your comments.

I was a bit worried about your Mum from what I had read about the film and I am glad that her existing knowledge probably helped shield her from the more graphic scenes. Cinema-wise, people are an incredibly odd mixture aren't they? and I'm befuddled by attitudes of others all the time.

I am glad the occasion went well overall.

Regards
Mo

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Let me also say...
Feb 29, 2004 10:57PM PST

...that I agreed with Paul's review as very good and accurate, so mine shouldn't be considered contradictory in any way, hopefully only complementary to his.

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Yes, and it's already being attacked there too!
Mar 4, 2004 12:44AM PST
Angry UK response to Passion

Mel Gibson's film The Passion Of The Christ screened for the first time in the UK this week to
anger from Jewish leaders who called it anti-Semitic.

Neville Nagler, Director General of the Jewish Board of Deputies, said it would have been
better if the film had never been made.

"The glorification of violence and the reinforcement of medieval stereotyping of the Jewish
people is extremely dangerous," he told The Sun.

The first screening of The Passion Of The Christ in Ireland caused an equally strong reaction.

The Chief Rabbi of Ireland, Dr Yaakov Pearlman has called on the majority Catholic Church to
denounce Gibson's movie as anti-Semitic, saying it portrays Jews as bloodthirsty and barbaric
? an allegation the director has repeatedly denied.

The Passion Of The Christ is released in the UK on March 26.
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Very nice review, James. Glad you mom had such a nice time. -NT
Mar 1, 2004 7:29PM PST

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Thank you for posting the review - can I ask please ...
Feb 28, 2004 12:43AM PST

What is a Kluxer? (No 2)

Your No 3 - I don't understand what you are saying. You mention "persuader" and "Mel Gibson's inention". Without having seen the film, I understand the nature overall, but simply do not understand what you mean. I am making no comment by this question.

Thank you for your review. The film is due for release here in the UK on 26 March.

Regards
Mo

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Re:Thank you for posting the review - can I ask please ...
Feb 28, 2004 1:25AM PST

Hi Mo,

I'm guessing that "Kluxer" would be a nickname for someone belonging to the Ku Klux Klan.

Persuader/intention I think he's saying that the film isn't useful for converting people to Christianity, and he doubts that that was Gibson's intent in making this film.

If I got it wrong, I hope he'll correct me.

Cindi

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(NT) Dear Cindi - I always appreciate responses to my questions. Thank you. Regards Mo
Feb 28, 2004 3:22AM PST

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Cindy and Mo,
Feb 28, 2004 5:39PM PST

1. "Kluxer": a member of the Ku Klux Klan (one of these days, I'll remember that we have SEers from across the water, I promise!).

2. My suspicion is confirmed by recent interviews that Mel Gibson has given in which he's said that he wanted to have people experience vicariously what Christ experienced in His death. My sense is that by largely omitting the why of His death (or for that matter, the Resurrection), Gibson has made a film that, as one reviewer here noted, was essentially "preaching to the choir", and not therefore actively serving as a form of proslytization.

Does this help?

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Excellent review Paul. I'm impressed with your movie critique abilities.
Feb 28, 2004 2:00AM PST

.

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Thanksm Paul
Feb 28, 2004 5:17AM PST

I won't be seeing it, as I haven't been to a theater in years.

From what I have heard about the movie, you made an excellent point re: reflection on the nature of good and evil in the modern world.

You got me musing about how far man has come over the centuries in his treatment of his fellows. Yet, in some parts of the world there are massacres as we speak, as well as "modern" modes like car bombs and suicide/murder bombers.

Steve noted the feeding of humans to animals for entertainment, which now seems unthinkable. Some enjoy watching blood sports like cockfights and pit dog fights to the death today, so suffering still appeals to some.

But then there are those who put themselves in harm's way to save others, even strangers.

So I believe we have made good progress.

Angeline
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

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Re: 'The Passion' -- a very Catholic film, theologically
Feb 28, 2004 1:04PM PST

Hi, Paul.

(These thoughts aren't original, they're based on an op-ed piece I read in the Houston Chronicle this week, but to which I can't find a link Sad )

One of the ironic things is that the film is being strongly embraced by Evangelical Christians. That's ironic because their theology says that salvation comes by "accepting Christ" -- essentially that one wins one's own salvation. Outside of the "high church" Protestant denominations (primarily Episcopal/Anglican and Lutheran), there's very little attention paid to Chsirst's suffering and death. The crucifix, withits figure of the crucified Christ, is primarily a Catholic/"high church" symbol, rarely seen in other Proestant churches or homes.

Catholic theology, on the other hand, says that we are incapable of winning salvation on our own -- that Christ won it for us on the Cross, but that we can lose our own salvation by doing evil and not truly repenting of it. And though Gibson may belong to s splinter sect of Catholicisms, his theology of Christ's role in an individual's salvation is completely orthodox. That's one reason I don't feel the need to see the film, btw -- as a Catholic for 55 years, I've had the importance of Christ's suffering and death drummed into me Sunday in and Sunday out. For many Protestants, the film presents a new insight.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Re:Re: 'The Passion' -- a very Catholic film, theologically
Feb 28, 2004 5:25PM PST

Dave,

You can see how long it's been since this ex-Catholic's thought about Catholic theology, right? Wink

Your point's correct, but I would add that for many nominal Christians, Christmas has assumed a more important place in their personal beliefs, and that's just wrong, IMO. While Christ's birth and life are important, it is the fact of His death and resurrection that is the central event in Christianity. Catholic theology or no, if The Passion helps those who profess to believe return to that central reality, then it will already have performed a great service.

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Re: 'The Passion' -- a very Catholic film, theologically
Feb 29, 2004 6:58AM PST

Hi, Paul.

You make an interesting point about Good Friday/Easter vs. Christmas. Historically, Easter was the first major feast celebrated; Christmas was only added to the calendar after Christianity became the state religion and they were trying to combat paganism -- the date was set to coopt the wnter soltice celebrations characteristic of many "pagan" religions. BTW, there was a piece on today's CBS Sunday Morning, and one of the interviews was with Mel's technical (language) expert -- a Jesuit priest. BTW, I'd always though Aramaic a dead language, with only a few words surviving through the Gospels, but apparently they've found villages in Syria and Turkey that speak dialexts that are directly descended, and so know a lot more about the language now than when I took theology in the late 60's and was taught it was essentially extinct.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Language
Feb 29, 2004 11:28PM PST

I've heard criticism that the Latin, regardless of it not belonging in the film at all, is very poorly pronounced.

Dan

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Re:Language
Mar 1, 2004 6:32PM PST

Dan,

The Latin used in the film was not the Latin spoken by the Roman elites, nor was it the Latin I learned in high school. It was what linguists referred to as "street Latin", a (somewhat degraded) form of the language common to average Roman citizens and expecially Roman soldiers. The only character who speaks any classical Latin extensively, as one might expect, is Pilate.

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William Safire's view as a NYT columnist
Mar 4, 2004 12:51AM PST
shorter link

The word "passion" is rooted in the Latin for "suffer." Mel Gibson's movie about the torture and agony of the final hours of Jesus is the bloodiest, most brutal example of sustained sadism ever presented on the screen...

The villains at whom the audience's outrage is directed are the actors playing bloodthirsty rabbis and their rabid Jewish followers. This is the essence of the medieval "passion play," preserved in pre-Hitler Germany at Oberammergau, a source of the hatred of all Jews as "Christ killers."....more at article (speakeasy, speakeasygang)
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(NT) (NT) bump
Jun 22, 2004 3:07AM PDT