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General discussion

My Oh My, Mr Kerry stepped in the mud..............

Mar 6, 2004 1:06PM PST

Discussion is locked

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Shades of Bill Clinton and Oxford
Mar 6, 2004 2:53PM PST

Paris? Wow! Maybe the difference is that Clinton faked out his draft board with ROTC.

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(NT) Message has been deleted.
Mar 7, 2004 1:19AM PST
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Re:Shades of Bill Clinton and Oxford -- Big deal!
Mar 7, 2004 1:23AM PST

Hi, KP.

Kerry never claimed to have volunteered for the Army -- but he did Volunteer for VietNam, while Bush checked the "no foreign posting" box.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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and Bush never called his buddies war criminals.
Mar 7, 2004 6:17AM PST

Who would you prefer to have as a buddy? Of course we know also that President Bush volunteered for that safe, comfy job of fighter pilot.

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Here's the actual article from the Harvard Crimson....
Mar 6, 2004 11:57PM PST
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Re:Here's the actual article from the Harvard Crimson....
Mar 7, 2004 12:08AM PST

And here's a portion of that article. Truly frightening to think that this is the Dem nominee:

Kerry said that the United Nations should have control over most of our foreign military operations. "I'm an internationalist. I'd like to see our troops dispersed through the world only at the directive of the United Nations." (emphasis mine)

So sez John "I'm an internationalist" Kerry. As I've said before, this November we have two choices: you can vote for an American, or a Massachusetts leftist.

DE

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Interesting to note that besides skippering a small boat like his hero, ...
Mar 7, 2004 12:15AM PST

JFK, he did something else just like his hero that never has received any notice--he purposely disobeyed orders.

"One time Kerry was ordered to destroy a Viet Cong village but disobeyed orders and suggested that the Navy Command simply send in a Psychological Warfare team to be friend the villagers with food, hospital supplies, and better educational facilities."

This was a known VC Ville, and any food or hospital supplies provided to such ALWAYS found their way into the use of the VC cadre sustaining their fight. Aid and Comfort...

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Wow! This guy has a talent for picking disastrous policies.
Mar 7, 2004 6:29AM PST

'He does not feel there would be a massive slaughter of American, sympathizers once the United States pulled out (of Vietnam).' - As I recall, they didn't do all that well.

'Kerry said that the United Nations should have control over most of our foreign military operations. "I'm an internationalist. I'd like to see our troops dispersed through the world only at the directive of the United Nations."' - the troops should love this one.

'Kerry wants "to almost eliminate CIA activity. The CIA is fighting its own war in Laos and nobody seems to care." He also favors a negative income tax and keeping unemployment at a very low level, "even if it means selective economic controls."' - so much for warnings about 9/11 and WMD

'In the summer of 1962, Kerry worked for Ted Kennedy, who was then making his first Senate bid.' - Maybe Teddy will yet be President (by proxy)

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(NT)Exactly what is negative income tax?
Mar 7, 2004 7:25AM PST

Not sure how this is meant relative to keeping unemployment low? paying people who are out of work? what?

Supporting some sort of UN authority is one thing, the following I find disturbing-

"...United Nations should have control over most of our foreign military operations. "I'm an internationalist. I'd like to see our troops dispersed through the world only at the directive of the United Nations." "

Even supporting UN decisions with troops involved in multinational peace keeping forces doesn't mean we have to let the UN direct where our troops go. The world IMO isn't ready yet for a world government with it's own military force, and that is what this amounts to having.

I also realize this was all in 1970, however, he seems to be presently supporting the same ideas.

RogerNC

click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

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Above is NOT an NT message, sorry, This is an NT message
Mar 7, 2004 7:36AM PST

.

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Here's one to think about. What if...
Mar 7, 2004 12:13PM PST

the UN wanted troops in the US? What if they didn't like Kerry's policies.

One thing's for sure. I sure wouldn't want to be in the military.

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Re:My Oh My, Mr Kerry stepped in the mud..............
Mar 6, 2004 11:59PM PST

Stepped in the mud or.... something!

I see a severe case of "buyer's remorse" coming along for this one. First it was almost Dean as the nominee, and now this one? Pitiful, absolutely pitiful....

More leftist than Ted Kennedy. And there's more, lots lots more....

Their best chance would have been with Lieberman. Granted, he's damaged goods ever since he prostituted himself when running with Gore, but I think he failed primarily because he was relatively conservative and there's no conservative/rational wing remaining in the leftist party. So they're a thing of the past, not to be taken seriously anymore. If I was a democrat I'd be contributing to Nader and campaigning for him right now.

DE

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Re:Re:My Oh My, Mr Kerry stepped in the mud..............
Mar 7, 2004 1:34AM PST

Makes ya wonder why, if Bush is SOOOOOOOO bad and could be so easily defeated (where IS that mainstream anyway??!! LOL), the Dems couldn't do any better than a Senator who hasn't even shown leadership in that body for a Candidate.

Evie Happy

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Re: My Oh My, Mr Kerry stepped in the mud..............
Mar 7, 2004 1:17AM PST

What's the big deal, Del? To me, the disctinction is still clear -- the politically connected Bush was let out of the Guard 9 months early to attend Harvard B-school; Kerry, lacking such pull, had his request denied and so went off to war and became a hero.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Kerry, lacking such pull, had his request denied and so went off to war and became a hero.....
Mar 7, 2004 1:30AM PST

.
And later an ELECTED President of the United States!

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(NT) Let's hope not!
Mar 7, 2004 1:34AM PST

.

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The POLITICALLY CONNECTED Kerry was allowed to return home...
Mar 7, 2004 4:58AM PST

8 months early to a cushy job as an aide to an Admiral in the Pentagon for incurring three "wounds" (two of which were very minor scratches most of us ignored and kept soldiering).

He did not become a "hero" as silver stars were handed out to junior officers like candy and it is difficult to find many who did not receive one.

While I will not call him a coward, I will state that he lacked cojones and contrived to leave the theater as soon as possible and for grounds he would most likely have disapproved for his own gunner.

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PS - AND, he requested and received a ...
Mar 7, 2004 6:33AM PST

6 month early discharge from his Navy Service. The Same Admiral he had been an aide for approved the request.

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Where are Kerry's records, Dave?
Mar 7, 2004 5:15AM PST

Dave, Bush put out his service and medical records. Where are Kerry's records? I'd like to see the details of those wounds.
Dave, it's like that Harvard Crimson article that just hit the spotlight, these things are now in "play", and won't go away.
You can yell Bush, Bush, Bush until you're blue in the face, Dave, that won't deflect or or prevent the Where's Kerry's info question or the questions raised by that article.

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There is a bit of information about the wounds here ...
Mar 7, 2004 6:08AM PST

It's not the official medical records, but Urban Legends Reference Pages: Politics (Service Mettle) does give some information about the wounds and the medals.

I cannot make any informed comment about how these wounds compare to those of other Purple Heart recipients or whether other sailors took advantage of the Navy policy regarding 3 purple hearts. I also do not know whether any of the other service branches have/had similar policies.

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I'm missing something here, Bill...
Mar 7, 2004 7:08AM PST

I'm missing something here, Bill. The story said, "Although there was no hard-and-fast rule, U.S. military procedure generally allowed any serviceman who received three Purple Hearts to request reassignment away from a combat zone, so Kerry talked to Commodore Charles F. Horne, an administrative official and commander of the coastal squadron in which he served. Four days after Kerry took his third hit of shrapnel, Horne forwarded a request on Kerry's behalf to the Navy Bureau of Personnel asking that Kerry be reassigned to "duty as a personal aide in Boston, New York, or Washington, D.C.".
Kerry talked to Commodore Horne about a transfer to U.S. duty before he had that qualifying 3rd purple heart, or did I miss something?

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I'm not sure I understand the question ...
Mar 7, 2004 8:04AM PST
Four days after Kerry took his third hit of shrapnel, Horne forwarded a request on Kerry's behalf to the Navy Bureau of Personnel asking that Kerry be reassigned to "duty as a personal aide in Boston, New York, or Washington, D.C."

The only conclusion I drew from that is that Kerry moved PROMPTLY to take advantage of the unwritten(?) policy. I saw some sources (but didn't note links) that stated this was Navy policy, rather than DoD policy.

As to whether Snopes is accurate in this report, I have no knowledge either way on that. There are similar reports out there, but I linked to the Snopes one since I've usually found that site reliable and since it also put the details in a sort of context by including reference to the allegations that the wounds were trivial. As to the other details regarding which boat and which patrol region were involved: I do wonder whether some of those sailors served on more than one boat, and I wonder how much boats were transferred from one patrol area to another but I do not know anything at all about those subjects.

I cannot see myself voting for anybody as liberal as Kerry, but I'd rather the campaign focus on issues more substantial than the degree of influence each candidate used in limiting exposure to Vietnam. It seems to me that both candidates have suspicious pasts in that area.
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May be bad writing, Bill...
Mar 7, 2004 8:19AM PST

The site may be guilty of bad writing, but the way that they wrote it makes it sound like he went to Horme to inquire about a transfer before he had that third, qualifying, purple heart. After, I could understand, but before raised my eyebrows.

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What would be the time delay between getting third wound
Mar 7, 2004 8:44AM PST

being put up for the purple heart, and receiving official conferring of the purple heart?

Just asking as I don't have military experience, much less experience in such things in a combat area like Vietnam.

Reading your post, then the article again, made me wonder if he went to confirm the eligibility before the third wound too. But while thinking about the situation, wondered if he might have gone to get it 'lined out' between getting the third wound and official confirmation of receit of third purple heart?

RogerNC

click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

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Couple of minor discrepancies...
Mar 7, 2004 7:12AM PST

Snopes also mentions PCF 94 and Kerry but the Department of the Navy would probably be surprised as his PCF command was 66. The Frederick Alan Short, GMG3 mentioned was gunner on PCF 66

Edward Robert "Tedd" Peck, LTJG, OinC of PCF 94 would likely also have been upset had he known he had Kerry aboard as supercargo.

The Navy thinks Kerry was riding PCF 66 out of An Thoi during the period 10/68-4/69

Snope's "proofs" are not necessarilly as well researched and "true" as they would have one believe.

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Noticed that myself, Edward...
Mar 7, 2004 7:29AM PST

Edward, I've noticed a couple of questionable "rulings" at that site myself in the past. Sometimes I'm surprised by something that they don't cover in their subjects.

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BTW, Edward, did you notice...
Mar 7, 2004 7:50AM PST

BTW, Edward, did you notice that they bought the he threw his ribbons excuse for the "boomerang medals" situation and then mentioned his testifying before the Senate? Remember, those ribbons were on his fatigues that he wore in the pictures of that event. Oops, Snopes.

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Lacking pull??? I would hardly call knowing the Kennedys lacking pull!
Mar 7, 2004 6:33AM PST

Note how easily he ended his service early.

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actually I think the more all this is pushed
Mar 7, 2004 7:34AM PST

The more it should be clear to those not decided absolutely to hate one position or the other that these things are similair enough to suspect that neither was unusual procedure at the time.

And as such, while background on candidates is important, it's also necessary to keep in mind how long ago such was, and what has been the history of each right up till now.

I really don't see how any accusation of Bush being connected varies much from Kerry acheiving his early transfer and personally suspect that such was quite common during Vietnam for those that could.

Busy left guard early to go to school, Kerry got out of Vietnam early. Both worked the rules to get what they wanted. Shrug. Kerry volunteered after not getting a year's deferral.

I don't see that volunteering in itself makes him that great. It also doesn't mean a lot he applied for a year's delay, even if he hoped Vietnam might be winding down before he went into service.

Sorry, but I think both sides are exaggerating to paint the other evil.

RogerNC

click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

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Volunteering for the Navy was probably decidedly better
Mar 7, 2004 12:21PM PST

than being drafted into the Army.