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General discussion

Must read! (Ann Coulter, but)

Apr 15, 2004 12:04AM PDT

If you do not read it and try to understand the warnings contained therein, you simply have your head in brown sand.

'So if two Jordanian cab drivers are searched before boarding a flight out of Newark, Osama bin Laden could then board that plane without being questioned. I'm no security expert, but I'm pretty sure this gives terrorists an opening for an attack.'

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/anncoulter/ac20040415.shtml

Bo

Discussion is locked

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Re:Must read! (Ann Coulter, but)
Apr 15, 2004 12:16AM PDT

Is that really true? Of course her "19 is bigger than two" is somewhat misleading since the 19 were distributed among four airplanes, but 4 and 5 are also bigger than two.

I'll have to ask my wife about this. My hunch is that this rule is not being adhered to. From conversations we've had, I feel pretty confident that if a group of 4 or 5 Middle-Eastern males in their 20s/30s were on the same flight, they'd all get extra attention, law or not, and if there was any resistance to it, the pilot might refuse to take the plane out. It's happened since 9/11.

The unfortunate side of all this, of course, is the kind of looks that perfectly innocent Middle Eastern men get in airports. It happened with me just last week. I was boarding a flight to Dallas on Thursday and there was a young Middle Eastern man waiting to board my flight. He was talking on a cell phone until the boarding call. I hated the way I was eyeing him but I couldn't help it. Needless to say, the flight was uneventful.

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Is that really true?
Apr 17, 2004 2:26AM PDT

Well, if it is not, then I suggest you take it up with Commissioner Lehman, as she was quoting his assertions re: policy.

I do know that there was a lengthy commission chaired by Gore regarding airline safety pre-9/11. I also know that the commission's recommendations regarding screening was pretty much rejected out of hand. Even now the ACLU and organizations such as CAIR make even common sense profiling impossible.

Evie Happy

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Re:Must read! (Ann Coulter, but)
Apr 15, 2004 12:43AM PDT

What was the reason for a wall between counterterrorism and criminal functions in the first place?

Dan

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Re:Re:Must read! (Ann Coulter, but)
Apr 15, 2004 1:07AM PDT

Something about the defendent's right to privacy and not putting something out to the cops that hadn't been proven. Ask Congress, they're the ones that came up with it. I think that they didn't want to think about the types of people that are spies. They also came up with the laws that the dregs of the earth (the ones that would know what was going on in the holes) are not reliable or good enough to be sources or spies.

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No simple answer.
Apr 15, 2004 1:14AM PDT

It began with the Church committee (as did many of the things that hurt our intelligence operations).

That committee was founded to investigate alleged abuses of the FBI during the VN protest era. The original FBI investigations were (legitimately) aimed at those protestors who appeared more militant. There was a line between necessary investigations for domestic peace and harassment of those who disagreed with our policy at the time.

Like all lines, the shades of gray were many and the FBI crossed them in some cases. Part of this was due soley to J Edgar Hoover and his overwhelming patriotism. (Overwhelming patriotism = carried to excess)

Out of that committee came the rulings that prevented the FBI from using information gathered for intelligence purposes from being used in criminal matters and vice versa. Also, the FBI and CIA were prevented from sharing information because the CIA was legitimately forbidden to gather domestic intelligence.

That this would prevent CIA from informing FBI that known (to CIA) foreign terrorists had entered the country was an unintended consequence.

The Gorelick Memo (which had the force of law within the agencies) expanded these restrictions beyond the actual laws. And within the agencies (FBI and CIA) it was considered a career ender to violate that memo.

The original prohibitions were intended to stop federal agencies from hindering internal protest, but wound up separating counterterrorism from criminal actions.

Bo

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Re:No simple answer.
Apr 15, 2004 1:43AM PDT

It should also be recalled that terrorism in the early 70s was nothing like what it's become. Sounds to me like the restrictions were appropriate at the time they were implemented, but probably should have been revisited in the 80s after the Beirut attack, the Achille Lauro incident, TWA 847, Pan Am 103, etc. even though there was no domestic terrorism involved.

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Time and the law, Josh.
Apr 15, 2004 7:17AM PDT

They may have been appropriate for the time, as envisioned at the time. That being said, they should never have included or been construed to protect aliens, only US citizens.

Had that been the 'law', then the CIA could have talked to the FBI when foreign nationals entered the US if CIA knew they might be up to no good.

But that still wouldn't have solved the separation of intelligence from criminal actions within the FBI. That part of the 'law' was flawed from the start.

Bo

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Re:Time and the law, Josh.
Apr 15, 2004 1:49PM PDT

Hi, Bo.

The real problem was that the FBI used agents provacateur during the VietNam era. In many cases peaceful protests turned violent because of leaders who were in fact FBI plants. The Nixon Administration's goal was to prevent the antiwar movement from gaining much sympathy from the American public by making the movement seem violent and radical. This is nothing new, btw -- the famous Haymarket Square bombing in 1886 is now generally believed to have been a similarly staged incident. What were the "anarchists" seeking, btw (It was actually the predecessor of the AF of L). An 8-hour workday, which Bush's new overtime rules are trying to rescind -- he's trying to turn labor laws back over 120 years! That's not a "conservative," that's an extreme reactionary!

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Jeez, Dave
Apr 15, 2004 9:53PM PDT

we were having a nice non-partisan discussion of the roots of a serious problem.

And you had to bring in a total change of subject just to slam Bush.

Bo

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Re:Jeez, Dave
Apr 15, 2004 10:12PM PDT

Bo,

Please don't put "Dave" and "non-partisan" in the same post again. It crashes my computer when you try that...

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But....
Apr 16, 2004 10:42AM PDT

The article appears to make some valid points but parts of it bothered me and didn't quite seem like they could be true, specifically the limit of screening only 2 Arab males.This really sounds farfetched so off I went to see what I could find.

My first step was to send a link to my brother to see if he could confirm or deny. He's a pilot for Southwest Air and one of those pilots selected to be trained and armed for the cockpit so I figured he would know. He couldn't confirm or deny. He said he doesn't know anything about a search limit based on any type of politically correct criteria, but that it wouldn't surprise him either. In hindsight, he is responsible for flying the plane, not screening the passengers. He did confirm that as a pilot he has the right to refuse to fly a passenger if he feels that passenger poses a threat to the safety of the flight. It would be my guess that Osama will not be flying on his plane even if they have detained 500 arab males before him.

My next step was the FAA since, as far as I know, they're the only one's with the authority to actually levy a fine against an airline. I could find no regulations that were even remotely tied to passenger discrimination except for those which pertain to exit row seating.

Next I visited the ACLU to see what offers they might have for those that have been discriminated against, you know, from the 3rd Arab male on. While they have a number of open cases against airlines for racial profiling they also point out several facts to would be complainants.The 3 that seemed to apply most are:

1. Customs agents have the right to stop, detain and search every person and item. (no apparent limit)
2. Even if the initial screen of your bags reveals nothing suspicious, the screeners have the authority to conduct a further search of you or your bags.
3. The pilot of an airplane has the right to refuse to fly a passenger if he or she believes the passenger is a threat to the safety of the flight. The pilot ?s decision must be reasonable and based on observations of you,not stereotypes. (same thing my brother said)

In the end I ended up at thomas.loc.gov to take a look at public law 107-71, the Aviation and Transportation Security Act which became law on 11/19/2001. The screening section states, "

The Under Secretary of Transportation for Security shall provide for the screening of all passengers and property, including United States mail, cargo, carry-on and checked baggage, and other articles, that will be carried aboard a passenger aircraft operated by an air carrier or foreign air carrier in air transportation or intrastate air transportation. In the case of flights and flight segments originating in the United States, the screening shall take place before boarding and shall be carried out by a Federal Government employee (as defined in section 2105 of title 5, United States Code), except as otherwise provided in section 44919 or 44920 and except for identifying passengers and baggage for screening under the CAPPS and known shipper programs and conducting positive bag-match programs."

It pretty clearly says "all" passengers and property with no exclusions. It looks to me like they can screen Arab males by the 100 if they want to...


P.S. You'll notice DaveK that it took quite a while before this reponse appeared. I just thought this might help to prove Roger's point in Dan's "Quagmire" thread Devil

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Fair enough, Clay.
Apr 16, 2004 10:48PM PDT

BUT.....

As the piece said, it was policy, not law, regulation, rule, etc.

It is entirely possible that if the fourth Arab screened was found to be suspicious, no one would do anything except hail the screener. If the fourth arab screened yelled 'Profiling', then the screener might be in serious trouble.

I have heard anecdotal tales regarding screeners screening white females because they had already screened enough arab males.

That being said, I do not want to fall into the same trap that caused the long discussion on special ed testing. Those complaining there said that one size testing was the law. I knew better.

In this case, it is clearly stated as policy. That has no force of law. However, policy can be disastrous. Take the Gorelick memo for example. It was only stated policy within the Justice Dept. Yet adherence to it was the proximate cause of 9/11.

Bo