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General discussion

Monarch Furia 64 or no?

Apr 13, 2005 7:56AM PDT

I am getting a new desktop and have been looking around for awhile. I am by no means a computer expert, but I have pretty good sense of what almost everything does ad such. It seems this company Monarch makes good machines from what I here, and at a good price. I use the computer for games and work, and definitely want a 64 bit processor. If anyone could explain exactly what pci does and if its an essential that would be awesome. I want the graphics card i get to last at least two years so suggestions on that would be awesome, my price range for a graphics card is 200 to 350 or so. Thanks alot.

Discussion is locked

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um...wow (this is REALLY long post)
Apr 13, 2005 1:45PM PDT

ok...PCI is Perephrial Interconnect Slot (i think, i know i got the meaning right, but the wording doesn't seem right..., and Perephrial is spelled wrong, twice)


SO basically what PCI does is allow connection of add-on cards
devices for many many things, such as:

Sound
Video
Networking
Modem
RAID Controllers
SATA Support
USB/Firewire support
SCSI Support
TV Capture
and many many other things

it is a physical slot on the motherboard, most motherboards have between 3 and 5 PCI slots (Micro-ATX is 3, ATX is 5) older motherboards may only have 1 or 2 PCI slots, or none (if their really old, older boards usually have ISA, which is VERY poor compared to PCI (ISA = 16-bit, slow and old PCI = 32-bit and in most server boards 64-bit, and much faster)

PCI is a VERY bad idea for video, as PCI is a bus, it shares it's bandwidth accross all slots (it has 132MB/s of bandwidth, and it's shared amongst all devices...for example if you have 1 soundcard, it gets ALL the bandwidth, meaning it has basically unlimited interface with the system, if you add in a modem, it will give each half the bandwidth (but if the modem isn't being used ,the sound card gets more bandwidth, it can vary) and if you add device 3, and so on...)

video is a thing which requires a lot of bandwidth for effective speed (Getting the data to the card quickly, and giving it enough bandwidth to read/write to the system RAM (as most gfx cards lack enough RAM onboard to store ALL the data they'll need (even with 128MB, why do you think professional grade cards have 512MB or more? to speed up rendering, and general applications (but they won't help in gaming, as their GPU's are optomized for quality not speed, so they'd be slower than a dog in gaming)


SO
enter AGP, which is Accelerated Graphics Port
it's a graphics only interface
you have AGP 2x, 4x and 8x
your probably asking "4x what?"
well, i'll tell you

AGP 2x is 2x the interface/bandwidth/data throughput of PCI, which is labled as 1x

AGP 4x is 4x PCI (not 4 PCI slots, but 4 times the data throughput)
AGP 8x is 2x AGP 4x

AGP 8x is the last AGP version released, and supports all major GPU's on all major platforms (including the X850XT PE, which I never thought i'd see on AGP)


so now we can move onto PCI-E x16
which is probably what your asking about
PCI-E x16 is PCI Express 16x
PCI Express is a MUCH Faster version of PCI, it's speed is measured in lanes (Each lane is equivalent to 1 PCI bus) so PCI-E x16 would be like AGP 16x, or twice the data througput of AGP 8x

BUT WAIT
it doesn't stop there
AGP is half-duplex
PCI-E is full-duplex

full duplex means that it can send the full bandwidth both ways
so PCIE 1x (Which actually IS NOT equivalent to PCI, it's 250MB/s per second (sorry bout that, just remembered)) is 500MB/s IF you count full duplex, AGP in that scinario would be 250MB/s TOTAL

but the full duplex is basically a marketing figure (it's good because there is less possibility of bottleneck)

but PCI-E 16x is 2x AGP 8x (AGP 8x is around 2GB/s, PCIE x16 is around 4GB/s (8 if you count full duplex, BUT DONT)


anyways
the general response you'll get here at CNET is that PCIE is too expensive and should be avoided
it really depends on what level your buying in

PCIE is expensive for high end nVidia cards, but it's because they have to carry the HSI Bridge AND the SLI hardware (HSI is nVidia's hardware adaption so AGP chips can work on PCIE and vice versa, the 6800's aren't designed for PCIE, their AGP based...so they need the HSI, AND SLI is nVidia's multi-card solution)

while ATI's high end PCIE cards are MUCH cheaper (X800XL for $250-ish, and it's 6800U equivalent (roughly, it's a bit slower, but comparing it to a $500+ card...it sorta wins due to it's much lower cost)


i would suggest PCIE if buying new, because it will allow for upgrades

for 64-bit, you want Athlon64
as Pentium 4 6xx is slower in gaming, and Athlon64 is also cheaper (and runs cooler, MUCH cooler)

as for the future...

please understand that 2006 is a HUGE year software wise

two of the most notable events are:

May 2006 - Release of Windows Longhorn (the new windows)

Sometime in 2006 - Full Release of Unreal3 Engine (which believe me on this, it powers more than Unreal2k6, and Unreal 3 (the game) it will power DOZENS IF NOT HUNDREDS of games)

now!
system requirements for Longhorn won't be known until the Beta evaluation versions slowly appear this fall (iirc Beta I is in September, and Beta II is like November/Dec...they want all pre-release stuff dealt with by Febuary, and the OS released in May (and SP1 for it should come in mid-2k6 or early 2k7 (can't quite remember)


BUT
U3 will require a gfx adapter which supports PS3.0 and FP32
currently the only GPU's on the market that support these features are nVidia's 6800, 6600 and 6200 series

ATI's X850 cards ARE FASTER (individually, and you can't pair up ATI cards (yet))

BUT
the 6800 is capable of playing U3
at what speed I have no idea
as the gfx requirements are also high (those are just features on the GPU, it still needs a hunking powerful GPU)


this summer is going to be a huge hardware release fest
as a few things are coming:
Dual Core, Intel has released the 840 for demo'ing to review sites (it's VERY close) and the chip should be out in May or June (Dual Core CPU is HUGE, believe me, HUGE, AMD isn't quite there (they could be, and just not releasing review samples...) but they should have Dual Core competition out soon)

please note that both Intel and AMD are releasing their first dual core desktop processors as their highest end chips
so expect a price tag for just the CPU of $1000 or more (but their current high end chips are in that range, considering what dual core adds, it's a steal, in a sense)


Intel's dual core is the Pentium 4 EE 840
AMD's is rumored to be the FX-57 (FX-57 is going to exist, BUT it might not be the dual core chip, but the rumor is the 4200+ and the FX-57 are AMD Dual Core)


please note that the 840 does no better than a 570J or 660 in benchmarking, and an FX-55 would probably be competitive (BUT the release of the 840 brings new chipsets, i'll get to that in a minute)
but the 840 does amazingly with 3D encoding and other stuff, currently it's ability is that of 2 CPU's, just a basic SMP, so it won't give a huge boost in gaming (it's Smithfield, which is essentially 2 Prescott's "bolted" together to make 1 CPU Die)

now on to Intel's new chipsets
the 945 and 955 series chipsets
they bring SLI to the Pentium 4
nVidia's nForce4 SLI Pentium 4 Edition is ALSO close (in the past nVidia has only built AMD support chipsets, and nVidia nForce4 SLI is an Athlon64 S939 chipset, the P4 Edition is for LGA 775)

SLI for the Pentium 4 is a good thing, as the Athlon64 can no longer hold being the only CPU to support SLI over the P4 (and we can see if a 6.3GHZ P4 w/dual video cards can kill an FX-55...)

in the past only Athlon64 had SLI (since SLI's release about 6 months ago) and it allowed even the slowest of CPU's to whip Pentium 4's (Athlon64 3000+ could decimate a 570J, mainly as dual 6800 series cards could utterly anhilate ANYTHING the P4 could be paired with...but now the tables are leveling)


so if I was ready to spend around $3000 on a new system
i'd wait
unless you NEED something

currently Athlon64 and GeForce 6800 is the best combo
BUT with Longhorn, U3, SLI for P4, dual core, and dozens of other major advances coming out...this summer into next spring will be VERY interesting...

we have Asus and Gigabyte demo'ing dual GPU on single card solutions
ATI is screaming AMR (their version of SLI) and it's supposed to be better than SLI


i know your probably wanting a gaming rig
so Athlon64 3500, 3800, 4000, FX-53, and FX-55 are great options
1GB of PC3200 or 2GB (if you got the money)
a good graphics card
and your set


what bugs me is the X800XL
it's a great card, it just won't support PS3.0/FP32...

if know you can afford a new system next year, i'd get the X800XL to save a buck today
but if a new system isn't gonna happen
i'd wait about 4 months
until around August, and then buy
as Longhorn will be much closer, and Microsoft will have gotten it's demo versions out to hardware makers, meaning they can start to make UDA's (Unified Driver Architectures) for their products to run under Longhorn (they've started to do it now even)


having dual core is the way to go into 2k6
R520 is probably going to be hitting production silicone around August (just a guess, enough stuff has been said about it, and enough as been posted to make me think it's close)

R520 is ATI's new GPU (ATI's GPU core names are the letter R, and a number, the 9800XT is R360, the X800XT is R420, the X850XT is R480, the new one is R520)

it's just such a nice GPU on paper
and it does support PS3.0/FP32 (it'd slaugther a 6800 if it's specs are true)

and i'm sure nVidia's NV50 is close too (nVidia's GPU names are NV, and a number, GeForce FX 5800 Ultra is NV30, GeForce 6800 Ultra is NV40, so the theory/belief is their new one is NV50 (they haven't said afaik, while ATI has declared R520 is their new GPU (it's going in Xbox2 also, which is why it's got so much press)

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(NT) (NT) why did i make that so long, for a simple Q?
Apr 13, 2005 1:46PM PDT
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Ozos
Apr 14, 2005 3:57AM PDT

I enjoy reading your long posts; and remember, most of the time simple and general questions demand long, specific, and complex answers (or that's how I feel). Anyways, you did not give your take on Monarch, and I am curious how you feel about them b/c they do have prices that are similar to Newegg (the company you recommended that I buy from) and they only charge 49$ to build (+15 or something dollars to have a 1 year warranty). Secondly, were you advocating that he wait for '06 for the new dual core chips? Also, are you trying to say that he should wait for the new video cards to come out, so that prices on the existing ones will drop? Or to wait and buy the new cards that are coming out...I am scared to think about how much the new 512 mb's are gonna be....

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I always thought...
Apr 14, 2005 5:29AM PDT

that PCI stood for "put card in"...however, it seems to stand for "peripheral component interconnect".

-JDM Silly

(BTW, AGP doesn't stand for "all games played"...it stands for "accelerated graphics port".)

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thanks a bunch, but...
Apr 14, 2005 7:41AM PDT

How far into the next wave of technology will i be able to get with a say 400$ graphics card, a gig of ram, and an Athlon 3500 would i be able to get,gaming wise.

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Okay...
Apr 15, 2005 12:34AM PDT

I see what you're getting at, JD. Hmmm, how can I phrase this...

No matter how much money you spend now, your rig will age--at least when it comes to gaming. The better the components you buy now, the longer you'll be able to go without a new rig or a major upgrade. More RAM is always better...and be sure to get a rig with plenty of room for expansion. In any event, your rig will probably be history (as far as leading-edge games go) in two years max. This is assuming you've bought top of the line hardware and upgraded along the way.

I hope this helps you. Wink

Sincerely, JDM

(*BTW, when buying a new machine, it always helps to check your software's hardware requirements first. Read up on your favorite games and/or the ones you're dying to play...and then buy hardware that exceeds those requirements by as much as your budget will allow.)

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Thanks man
Apr 16, 2005 7:04AM PDT

Thanks alot man,you were clear and percise,exactly what i needed.

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Monarch Furia 64 or no?
Apr 14, 2005 12:25AM PDT

A link to the Monarch web site would be help full. John

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Monarch Furia 64 or no?
Apr 15, 2005 3:47AM PDT

Thanks for the links. I liked what I saw there, lots of choices, NAME brands. You can have them build you a PC or buy the componets and do it yourself. Prices looked compitive. John

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Re: Monarch Furia 64
Apr 14, 2005 5:03AM PDT

Ozos covered the PCI structures pretty well.

Assume you want the new PCI-Express Technology and click on Monarch Furia (93964/FX) Custom Desktop w/PCI-E:

http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=M&Category_Code=allcustom

http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=M&Product_Code=80311

In the graphic cards, if you can go for close to $50 more than the $350 then the Nvidia GeForc4 6800GT (PCI-E) would be good. If not then the 6800 (PCI-E)for about $300 or the 6600GT (PCI-E) for $175.

Monarch built several computers for some members in the Computer Help forum and also a CNet Moderator had them build a basic configuration with good results. All expressed good dealings with them. Monarch uses a wide selection of quality parts/components. I will be having them build my next computer, as I have compared (several times) the cost of me building one vs them building with the exact same 'named' parts is only a few dollars more, and besides I don't have to call myself on the warranty. Silly