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MJ may have medicinal value after all....

On top of the suspected benefits chemo and glaucoma patients have from smoking pot it seems it could help to fight brain cancer too. It's looking more and more like the 'no medicinal use' argument against it is loosing steam.

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(NT) (NT) Probably helps in eyeball piercing too!

In reply to: MJ may have medicinal value after all....

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Re: MJ may have medicinal value after all....

In reply to: MJ may have medicinal value after all....

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Re: MJ may have medicinal value after all....

In reply to: Re: MJ may have medicinal value after all....

Let's face it, this decision was made by politicians, not scientists or doctors.

Kind of makes me wonder, can we sue politicians for malpractice?

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Re: MJ may have medicinal value after all....

In reply to: MJ may have medicinal value after all....

Hi, Clay.

No surprise -- MJ was outlwawed on the basis of a smear campaign paid for by the liquor industry, with no scientific basis whatsoever. And the mantra about "no medical use" flies in the fac of expert opinion by doctors, including the Institute of Medicine and the National Academy of Sciences. The problem is that anyone who proposes change in its status is immediately charge with being "soft on drugs," so neither party has been willing to reverse decades of terrible public policy on the issue.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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To be fair Dave ...

In reply to: Re: MJ may have medicinal value after all....

... there WAS no known medicinal quality to MJ at the time it was classed Schedule I.

Evie Happy

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Re: To be fair Dave ...

In reply to: To be fair Dave ...

Hi, Evie.

Point is, marijuana on balance is no more harmful than alcohol. Probably much less, as men who do a bit too much MJ rarely come home and beat up on their wives and kids.

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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(NT) (NT) Irrelevant to the Scheduling Dave

In reply to: Re: To be fair Dave ...

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Re: (NT) Irrelevant to the Scheduling Dave

In reply to: (NT) Irrelevant to the Scheduling Dave

Hi, Evie.

When was the scheduling done? On the basis of what scientific proof of MJ's danger was it put on the schedule? (These are rhetorical questions). There was never any reason for MJ to be on the schedule in the first place -- and the refusal to change its status despite more than a decade of increasing scientific proof of its medicinal value represents closed-mindedness at its worst: "Don't confuse me with facts -- my mind is made up!" Also probably some turn protection from drug czars who don't want their budgets cut...

-- Dave K.
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!


-- Dave K.
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

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Why rhetorical questions?

In reply to: Re: (NT) Irrelevant to the Scheduling Dave

I personally disagree with the current Schedule I status. But it was originally placed there circa 1971 with the passage of the CSA. My point was that at THAT time, it was NOT even marginally recognized to have medicinal uses. I actually agree with you that at this point it is mostly politics for the reasons you outlined in a prior post that it hasn't been rescheduled.

That said, going back to the original post, this wasn't smoking a joint, it was injecting the active ingredient into a tumor. That is more "supporting evidence" for developing Marinol/pharmaceuticalized MJ derivatives than it is a case for smoking MJ for medical benefit.

Evie Happy

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Hardly, Dave...

In reply to: Re: MJ may have medicinal value after all....

Dave, it wasn't a smear campaign paid for by the liquor industry, it was a campaign by William Randolph Hearst, in his newspapers. He wanted to sell papers, and a good "stink" did just that, big time.
The Federal laws were a result of political pressure by the south-western states, who wanted it to use against Hispanics, most especially Mexicans. This was covered in detail with you in a previous thread, surely you remember. The liquor industry "plot" is just a lot of silliness.
That said, let's consider something. Let's take the medical use of MJ as a given. Narcotics also have a medical use. If you have a medical need for narcotics, you have but to go to an MD and get a prescription. Why shouldn't we have the same for MJ, putting an MD in the loop?

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Re: Hardly, Dave...

In reply to: Hardly, Dave...

Alcohol has medicinal purposes. Would you do the same with it?

Dan

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Are you saying...

In reply to: Re: Hardly, Dave...

Are you saying that since you can obtain alcohol without going thru an MD, but on demand, that all drugs should be freely available on demand?

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Re: Are you saying...

In reply to: Are you saying...

Wait, let me read the post....

OK.

Nope. I'm not saying that.

Dan

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Now let me check...

In reply to: Re: Are you saying...

Now let me check to see if Alcohol has anything to do with medical mariajuana. Nope.

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Re: MJ may have medicinal value after all....

In reply to: MJ may have medicinal value after all....

The biopsied tissue was analyzed before and after local injection of a cannabinoid.

Marinol has been approved for medical use. Injected canniboids probably don't run awry of the Schedule I status of cannibis, and if it does, like morphine administered in hospitals, it would be a rather non-controversial issue to get it approved for use in this manner.

That said, I agree with you both that this issue remains largely political vs. medical. There is ample evidence that MJ has some medical uses. I wouldn't have a problem with it if recipients of prescriptions are barred from driving.

Evie Happy
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Re: MJ may have medicinal value after all....

In reply to: Re: MJ may have medicinal value after all....

Wouldnt it also be logical to bar anyone who has ingested ETOH within 4 hours of getting behind the wheel regardless of blood levels? Especially since ETOH users kill thousands of people a year with their vehicles.

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Re: MJ may have medicinal value after all....

In reply to: Re: MJ may have medicinal value after all....

Hmmm, maybe. As moderate drinker, I can acknowledge that any comsuption may contribute to impairment of driving skills.

But so do many other things that happen every day.

And anyone that has been up over 16 hours? anyone that had less than 6 hours sleep in last 24? ( or some other number for both examples.)

Anyone that just had an angry disagreement with someone? (adrendalin you know is a powerful drug).

Anyone with children and no other adult in car?

No eating or drinking (non-alcoholic that is) while moving/driving?

No changing cassettes, or cd's while moving/driving?

Etc.

While no doubt alcohol has contributed more, it and drugs are the only ones really documented. Many of the rest are only recalled by the driver as "I don't know what happened, just there the other vehicle was".

RogerNC

click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

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Re: MJ may have medicinal value after all....

In reply to: Re: MJ may have medicinal value after all....

There is a difference between the effects of MJ and EtOH on the body and the mode of action. Technically MJ is classed as a hallucinogen and is not elimitated from the body as rapidly and completely as EtOH. It can remain attached to blood or sequestered in fat for days, and ask anyone worried about taking a drug test, a period of weeks is usually recommended to test clean. A person using medical MJ will likely be using it daily (I think Montel Williams is pretty up front about his regular use of the drug for example) and essentially maintain some degree of altered state. Besides, technically those that imbibe alcohol are "banned" from driving in that if they do and get caught they will likely get cited for DUI. BTW I would also support suspension/restriction on driving for those on painkillers like Oxycodone as well. Anyone taking these drugs long term for chronic pain really ought not be driving.

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Re: MJ may have medicinal value after all....

In reply to: Re: MJ may have medicinal value after all....

I would also support suspension/restriction on driving for those on painkillers like Oxycodone as well. Anyone taking these drugs long term for chronic pain really ought not be driving.

Based on my own experience I would have to disagree. There was a time my wife was on a variety of heavy pain medications as a result of cancer. I noticed that the only time you could recognize any effects on her was when she didn't take her medicine. As long as she was taking her meds as dosed she showed no change in alertness or mental function. When she missed a dose you could tell because the pain was debilitating.

I questioned the doctor about this and he explained that opiates used to treat pain in this manner do not produce any euphoric effects for the patient. He did say that if he noticed any change in her reflexes she would be advised not to drive. I kind of figured at the time that since he bore some liability he certainly wouldn't let her drive if he thought she might be in an accident. Since he is a pain specialist I have faith in his opinion.

OTOH, I have a friend taking some kind of medicine for a stroke he had. His doctor told him that he will take that medicine for life or give up his drivers license for 6 months when he quits taking it because of the chances that he would be in an accident.

Another friend of mine just had his license pulled by a doctor for 2 months while he is treated for a brain tumor. The doctor explained that he could start driving again after he finishes radiation treatments. I guess the doctor's not worried about the tumor affecting his driving, just the treatments.

Maybe Dr. Bill can provide some insight on how doctors decide who can drive and who can't or what the circumstances are that doctors are required to report to the motor vehicle division.

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Re: MJ may have medicinal value after all....

In reply to: Re: MJ may have medicinal value after all....

Hi Clay,

Well, I think you would be hard pressed to find drug information on the biggies (oxycontin, oxycodone, hydroxycodone, et. al.) or prescription bottles that do NOT carry the warnings about mental impairment.

He did say that if he noticed any change in her reflexes she would be advised not to drive.

How did your wife's doctor measure her reflexes for changes?

I kind of figured at the time that since he bore some liability he certainly wouldn't let her drive if he thought she might be in an accident.

He took a great risk here if you think about it. Whether or not your wife's pain medication really was a factor, had she gotten in an accident that warranted a jury trial (e.g. someone got killed) I imagine the scenario would go something like this: Wife charged with driving impaired, Wife claims doctor said it was OK, all eyes on the doctor who will probably point to the written information distributed with all such prescriptions and deny any verbal assurances. Bottom line, if your wife had a codeine like substance in her blood, it matters not that it was legally prescribed or taken recreationally, the conclusion will be the same.

In the Know: DUI can come from more than alcohol

Prescriptions from physicians are permits allowing a person to possess and use a particular controlled substance when treating some form of malady.

Not every prescription medication will impair a person's driving ability, but there are many that can. The list of medications that can potentially impair a person would be exhausting; here are just a few of the most commonly used ones:

Drugs such as Xanax (alprazolam) and Valium (diazepam) are used for the treatment of anxiety and depression. These drugs can have severe effects on driving ability, particularly when a person is not prescribed this medication, or they consume more than they are prescribed. Most anti-depressant drugs also fit into this category.

Other drugs, such as painkillers like morphine, Demerol and Percocet can also greatly impair a person's ability to drive. These drugs tend to induce sleep, in addition to their pain-management properties. The most common side effects of these drugs is drowsiness and slowed movements. A persons reaction time is also severely hampered, making it likely they will be unable to avoid an unexpected situation when driving.

Many over-the-counter remedies can also impair driving ability, Clark said.

Ingredients of certain cough syrups may include dextromethorphan which can cause drowsiness. Dextromethorphan is found in cough suppressant medicines, such as Robitussin DM, Coricidin Cough and Cold and Nyquil....

..."The crime of DUI requires that a person be under the influence of a controlled substance to the extent that his/her normal faculties are impaired. Impaired essentially means less than 100 percent," Clark said. Before driving, a person who is taking a medicine should review the labels on the prescription for any warnings concerning the operation of automobiles, which is sometimes listed as heavy machinery. Those drugs that can affect driving should have an advisory in place. Secondly, if the label indicates there is a driving risk, you should evaluate your condition and judge whether you are functioning at 100 percent.
{emphasis mine}

Granted, I'm not sure most of us are functioning at 100% most of the time due to a variety of other causes, but bottom line is that a person taking the drug is not really in a good position to judge their own impairment (unless they are infrequent drinkers, most people with 0.08 BAL do not generally feel impaired themselves, and most won't even appear impaired to the random observer). The only thing a jury would see in the case of someone taking such painkillers would be the level of opiate in their system. Legally BAL's for impairment are 0.1 and even as low as 0.05. The levels for opiates are equally established, not determined subjectively. My point is that when a doctor prescribes something KNOWN to impair mental function in a manner such as to mandate warning about it, such prescriptions should be tied to driving privileges.

You should note that in workmen's comp cases, if an employee is prescribed such painkillers but returns to work in some capacity, they are barred (at least in all of the several cases I am familiar with) from any activities that might involve operating anything bigger than a motorized wheelchair/scooter.

Back to the MJ, I have no problem with it being decriminalized so that those with certain illnesses can obtain it. I do believe that if it is to be prescribed formally by a doctor, it needs to be pharmaceuticalized which means far more than legalizing/regulating/taxing. However I've known some chronic MJ users in my day. They used amounts similar to what Montel Williams acknowledges taking and I wouldn't get in a passenger seat with them at the wheel.

Evie Happy

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