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Mixing religion and politics:


US evangelicals seek green laws
''The statement - signed by mega-church pastors like Rick Warren, author of the bestseller The Purpose-Driven Life, heads of Christian colleges and missionary organisations - puts saving ''God's green earth'' on a par with traditional evangelical concerns like abortion and gay marriage ...
But this move has prompted a backlash from some of the most influential conservative Christians - James Dobson's Focus on the Family called it a ''distraction'' from abortion and family values.''

... and they all move further away from Mt 24:14 and 28:18,19, their 'instructions from the top'.
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Religion or politics ...

In reply to: Mixing religion and politics:

... still bad science.

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(NT) (NT) ???

In reply to: Religion or politics ...

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Whether interpreted by politicians to advance a ...

In reply to: (NT) ???

... political agenda, or religious leaders, the distortion of global warming science (such as it is) leads to the same wrong-headed end. Sad

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Most of the Evangelicals

In reply to: Whether interpreted by politicians to advance a ...

that I respect are not involved in this, for example
Dr James Dobson

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The only reason this is "news" ...

In reply to: Most of the Evangelicals

... is because some seen as being from the "right" are seen as "defectors" and against Bush. It's what McCain owes his popularity too as well. The left-biased media is always looking to fawn over the next "enlightened" conservative!

Evie Happy

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So true:(

In reply to: The only reason this is "news" ...

They have to make mountains where there are only mole hillsSad Sad!

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Just out of curiosity...

In reply to: The only reason this is "news" ...

... what makes you say that "the media" is left-biased?

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The evidence is all around and the only way one ...

In reply to: Just out of curiosity...

... can view it as anything but, is if one is all the way on the left of the political spectrum.

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critical reporting

In reply to: Just out of curiosity...

will always be viewed as liberal or conservative bias depending on the offended sensibilities. I am always ammused that the accusations of liberal bias of the news some how always overlooks the majority of afternoon AM radio whichs has pandered to conservatives for over 20 years and the more mainstream FNC (Fox News)which spends more time broadcasting political pundit's talk shows("I am not a reporter": S. Hannity) than broadcasting actual news.


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He's NOT a reporter ...

In reply to: critical reporting

... most at the NYT's are, but you would never know it from the editorializing that passes for "news".

The so-called "mainstream media" is crumbling. They can no longer maintain their stranglehold on what qualifies as news with alternate media outlets.

Their censorship of the Muslim cartoons vs. discourse on the internet is prime reason why this demise is both a long time in coming and a "good thing" to quote Martha.

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Afraid you have stumbled on one of the "Myths of the Right"

In reply to: Just out of curiosity...

here, and the unquestioned dogma of many of the SE family. Despite much evidence to the contrary, like the continuing concentration of ownership of news media, and media moguls like Rupert Murdoch who owns FoxNews, SkyNews, hundreds of newspapers world wide, scores of TV stations, and his active dictating of a strong right-wing slant to editorial policy as evidenced by released e-mails and memos, the Right maintains that anything not slanted their way is a Left-Wing Media Conspiracy. Anything that offers both sides of the issue, is left biased. Anything not OKed by Rush Limbaugh, Neal Boortz, Ollie North and a seemingly endless cast of Right Wing Ideologues trained and supported by all the Right Wing think tanks like the Cato Institute, and the American Enterprise Institute, and a couple of dozen more too odious to mention, is seen as untrue, slanted or biased.

You may have noticed that a number of people here have defended the secrecy around **** Cheney's stupidity with a shotgun, suggesting an unfriendly media and other such nonsense.

I can only hope this is a phase I live through, just like the Left Wing hysteria of the late 60's and early 70's when all media outlets were said to be complicit with the Right. It's a cultural delusion which will some day go away, leaving us hopefully with a clearer view of a media which uses sensationalism of both the right and left varieties merely to promote and sell itself. Sadly this debasing of the useful world of journalism was pioneered in Britain during their years of press consolidation in the first 30 years of the last Century. It was a time of pandering to the least educated and most bigoted sectors of the populace and yielded tabloid journalism as we know it today. Many of the reporters and most of the editors that fill the American supermarket tabloids with swill are British or Irish or Australian.


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Nonsense, Rob.

In reply to: Afraid you have stumbled on one of the "Myths of the Right"

On more than one occasion media biggies have ADMITTED that they have overwhelmingly voted Democratic. Yes, there are a few "right wing" networks and papers but overwhelmingly the reportage and editorial stances are liberal. The myth is that it's a myth.

But you knew that. Who are you trying to kid?

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Dobson is very much involved in

In reply to: Most of the Evangelicals

politics in general, just not this particular issue. Therefore maybe he's in violation of ''one Lord, one faith, one baptism'' Christian unity teachings. Happy

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He is in full agreement with the historical creeds of the

In reply to: Dobson is very much involved in

church as are the other evangelicals. Thus, he is not violating the "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" test you are applying. It's interesting that you hit this issue so much since Jehovah Witnesses fail this test. The Watchtower does not accept the full deity of Jesus (who is the Lord), and is thus out of step with the historical Christian church. Of course, that's only one of many doctrines that the Watchtower denies.

Political activity does not fall under this umbrella. There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that it should. To the contrary, Paul calls on Christians to avoid violating their conscience in matters which are not at the heart of the gospel. Thus, some can eat meat with a clear conscience while others cannot.

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The bible, on the attitude of Christ and Christians:

In reply to: He is in full agreement with the historical creeds of the

Luk 4:5,8: ''And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time ... And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.''
His great chance, and he refused worldly government from the very hand of its owner! (Jhn 12:31, 14:30, 16:11)

John 6:15: ''When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.''
But wasn't he the prophesied King of the Jews?

Act 1:6 - 8: ''When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.'' (And so we are, down to this day.)
Contrary to their expectations, neither Jesus nor his to-be-anointed disciples were given hegemony over the hated Roman occupation. But did they not use their awesome holy spirit power- some even say it's God Almighty- to set up an earthly government? No record of that. That example comes from the pagan Constantine.

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and your point is?

In reply to: The bible, on the attitude of Christ and Christians:

First DR, you're again taking things out of context. You skipped the key part of the incident.

Luke 4:5-8

5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6 And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 So if you worship me, it will all be yours."

8 Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.'"

So, the temptation was that Jesus worship Satan. That was what He refused to do. It was not an offer to rule the world on terms that Jesus could accept.

Second, Jesus was well aware of God's timetable. The time had not yet come for Him to rule with earthly power. God's plan was much larger in scope than that.

How that relates to Dobson lobbying for moral values in this country is a mystery to me. It certainly doesn't have anything to do with one faith, etc. Jesus did not tell us to refrain from political involvement. In fact, as I explained once before, that involvement may be required to carry the gospel to all the parts of the world. God establishes rulers and government. It is His desire that they be just.

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BTW: "since Jehovah Witnesses fail this test"

In reply to: He is in full agreement with the historical creeds of the

isn't relevant. We're not to have one faith with the splinter groups now calling themselves Christian, we're commanded to have unity with one another, and we do. The "you" of Eph 4:1-4 is 'you Christians who are like me, Paul.' Much later, Paul warned against what did in fact happen:
Act 20:29-31 "For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears."

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So, we've got all of the churches who hold to the historical

In reply to: BTW: "since Jehovah Witnesses fail this test"

Christian creeds, including the clear teaching of the New Testament, on one side, and the Watchtower on the other side. One small group which denies the teaching of the New Testament is right?

You are indeed right DR. Paul did warn about the wolves who would fly false colors and come among the members of the church. They're looking to take down the weak ones. The only people I see wearing false colors is the Watchtower when they claim that they are Christians while denying that Jesus is Lord.

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Mt 7:13,14

In reply to: So, we've got all of the churches who hold to the historical

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

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two verses for you

In reply to: Mt 7:13,14

Revelation Chapter 3 vs 20-21

(20) Behold, I stand at the door, and knock:if any man hear my voice, and open the door,I will come into him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
(21) To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me
in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

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(NT) (NT) ???

In reply to: two verses for you

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Your ??

In reply to: (NT) ???

Doesn't surprise me. Jesus is saying he is the door to salvation, something JW's don't seem to understandSad

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We believe the bible, Glenda,

In reply to: two verses for you

and so we believe this:
''Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name [that is, Jesus] under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.'' Acts 4:12

But we also believe this:
''Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.'' Mt 7:21-23, spoken by Jesus himself.

So we're careful to follow Jesus' instructions so as not to be caught out of true Christianity, as it is identified here.

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I take that first verse to mean ...

In reply to: We believe the bible, Glenda,

... there is no salvation except through Jesus Christ which is the route by which we must be saved.

Now mind you, this was JUST MY READING OF THE VERSE YOU PROVIDED -- no Biblical scholar am I.

But I look around and I see I'm apparently interpreting it correctly:

Acts 4:12 (New International Version)

12Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.

Acts 4:12 (King James Version)

12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Acts 4:12 (American Standard Version)

12 And in none other is there salvation: for neither is there any other name under heaven, that is given among men, wherein we must be saved.

Acts 4:12 (Worldwide English (New Testament))
Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE)

12No one else can save us. Of all the people in the world, God chose him to save us. It is by him we must be saved.'

The meaning is pretty clear to me, so I find it puzzling, at best, that you cite this verse as proof of the opposite!

At best, Jehovah's Witnesses, can claim to be a fringe Christian sect. The vast, VAST, majority of Christians share the central belief in the deity of Christ and salvation through him which clearly you do not. That's what's called a "biggie" in terms of differences in beliefs!

Evie Happy

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(NT) (NT) In the NWT maybe:(

In reply to: We believe the bible, Glenda,

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I guess the logic here is that, if you are a small group,

In reply to: Mt 7:13,14

you must be right? I think the Branch Davidians were smaller. Were they right?

Just because you're a member of a Baptist, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Catholic, Anglican, Episcopal, etc. church does not mean that you are a Christian. You need a personal relationship with Jesus Christ for that to happen. However, it does help if your church has its theology correct.

Jesus was indeed correct when He said this. Perhaps you haven't noticed, but Christians do not represent a large part of the world's population. Many who call themselves Christians within the Christian population do not have a saving faith in Jesus Christ. That's one of the things that the churches try to teach them.

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(NT) (NT) Are you saying JW's aren't Christians?

In reply to: He is in full agreement with the historical creeds of the

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In reply to: (NT) Are you saying JW's aren't Christians?

It's a cult! And sorry if that offends Doug.

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How does it qualify as

In reply to: YES!

a cult rather than a religion?


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In reply to: How does it qualify as

''Jehovah's Witnesses consider themselves to be the only true Christians. However, their organization - the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society - denies and/or contradicts several of the essential doctrines of the Christian faith.

Individuals who, while claiming to be Christians, reject one of more central (key) doctrines of the Christian faith are considered heretics. Groups which reject such doctrines while claiming to represent Christianity, are considered cults of Christianity.

Thus, while Jehovah's Witnesses profess to be Christians, they are outside orthodox Christianity and are considered to be, theologically, a cult of Christianity.

Sociologically, this religious movement has a number of cult-like characteristics and problems as well, including the high level of control exerted over its members' lives, its unbiblical approach to the practice of shunning, and its teachings regarding blood transfusions (which have resulted in many needless deaths).''
-From Apologeticsindex.org

They say it better than I could.


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