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General discussion

Mini-DV Camcorder. Want to buy an excellent one.

Apr 26, 2005 8:22AM PDT

This is going to be my first camcorder, yet I want to go right away for a excellent machine. My daughter gave us recently a grand-son. So I want to immortalize him with his best faces!
As other people on the forum, I am learning the hard way. I bought last week an Hitachi DVD-Camcorder which I returned to the store today for the now to me known reasons: poor editability, incompatibility with my eMac, etc. I am now in the market for a mini-DVD.
These are the basic specs I am looking for:
- 3 CCD. I understand that is is a major factor for picture quality. This apparently implies that one goes for a model with horizontal design.
- size in inches of the chip (CCD): important for low light filming (filming inside is for me important)
- Number of pixels: the higher, the better the picture. But this factor apparently goes against sensitivity. So one must apparently make a trade-off between these last 2 elements.
-optical zoom: the higher, apparently the higher the picture quality (better lenses)
-good point-and-shoot performance but also easiness/accessibility of manual control (focus if possible with ring, opening)

Budget range: $ 700.- to, say, 1'200.-, I mean I want a good machine.
My e-Mac store recommends a Canon product (but they only sell this brand). I did not explore yet the numerous Canon products, yet I
notice on their web site that many models are both for video and photos. This scares me, since you cannot be excellent on both counts. According to Consumer Reports, Canon also had a higher repair rate as compared to Sony (bet this ist between 2000 and 2003).
But the same store advises against Sony products, because they tend to use proprietary technology (less universal I guess). Panasonic apparently has good ratings.

I am going to do further my homework in this terribly complex jungle for an amateur. Yet I would very much appreciate good advices from the pros...Can anybody recommend to me 2 to 4 models to choose from?
Thank you
bozzinil

Discussion is locked

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Mini-Dv
Apr 27, 2005 2:04AM PDT
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Folks, come to the rescue of a grandfather at a loss...
Apr 27, 2005 6:42AM PDT

Thanks John for your precision on Sony.
But the grandfather (see the first message on this thread) is still at a loss...So folks please help me for deciding on an excellent mini-DV!

It is difficult to get good advice at the stores. I do not know the situation in the USA, but here in Canada, it looks roughly like this: you find a competent guy on camcorders at a Mac store, but he sells only one brand. Or you go to a

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I think one of your problems is your budget. You can get a
Apr 27, 2005 8:28AM PDT

decent consumer camera for under $1,200, but you won't get an 'excellent' one. A Sony DCR-VX2100 ($2,320 at B&H Photo & Video) or a Canon GL2 ($2,195 at B&H) start entering 'excellent' territory.

Don't forget to budget for a decent microphone. The ones built into the cameras are not very good, and are prone to pick up camera noise.

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Thank you Kiddpeat
Apr 28, 2005 12:34AM PDT

Your message is very useful, since it sets the basics for a beginner in video (I did quite a lot of manually controlled photography in my youth).
For now, I won't go for the

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I can't answer all your questions as my interest is limited
Apr 28, 2005 3:41PM PDT

to the high end cameras. Maybe Snapshot2 will weigh in with some advice. I am a Canon fan, but I don't buy the idea of a combined still and video camera. I think that if you want a good one, it will be one or the other but not both. However, a video camera may have a still image capability (due to market demand), but not put a lot of attention into it. You need to look at reviews to see where the video quality is.

I have no problem with Sony. A lot of pros use Sony. I do have a problem with them when they turn proprietary as with the memory stick and many other things. If you get a Sony miniDV, it should be fairly standard. It will probably hace a still image ability using a memory stick, but I never use that function on a video camera except by mistake.

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to jcrobso/drhiberd/kiddpeat
Apr 29, 2005 10:53AM PDT

Thank you all of you. You have been very helpful in straightening out a bit the almost

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Sony
Apr 27, 2005 4:36PM PDT

I have owned them all. I would certainly go with Sony. If you are ever going to shoot indoors, in the evening with a couple of lights on like a regular person than low light quality is important. I have owned Canon, JVC, Panasonic, etc. and none of them can compare to Sony for indoor quality. They all shoot beautiful images outdoors, but most people want to shoot indoors as well. As far as your other concerns go, you can't afford a good 3ccd on your budget. You can add a telephoto lens if you want a greater optical zoom for under $100. If you're new to all of this, manual controls are not going to help you very much. I would recommend the Sony HC90, under $1000, 2megapixel effective for tape, 10x optical zoom, 1/3" ccd, and great point and shoot capabilities. Hope its not too long winded, but I love my Sony camcorder indoors and out.

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Thank you very much drhiberd
Apr 28, 2005 1:30AM PDT

I am new to Web forums as a new way of learning and I am impressed. What strikes me is that there are folks out there willing to take time of their finite life time to help others. In the Christian tradition, that's Charity!
I appreciate very much your tip on Sony generally and for 2 basic concerns:
- size of the chip
- low light quality (follows from the chip size as I understand it)
To come back to your message:
- is a telephoto lens roughly equivalent to a bigger zoom?
- I am almost new to video (though I dit some super 8mm back in the sixties!), yet I also did quite a lot of manually controlled photo (with a top Pentax). Manual control is for me a must in certain situations.
- 3-CCD: how far should I go to get a good one?
At this stage, I am going to explore the HC 90
Thank you again.
See also my reply to Kiddpeat about the brands. By the way, I suspect this discussion thread is going to be useful to many people.

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Size of the chip or 3-CCD?
Apr 28, 2005 2:14AM PDT

Dear drhiberd,

A rejoinder to my previous message.
Had a quick look (just for video quality) at the dvspot review of the 3-CDD Panasonic PVGS (between $ 950.- and 1'100.- in Canada). The dvspot review is on the PVGS 250 (just below the top of the series).
This camcorder has 3-CCD of 1/6 "
Now dvspot was disappointed about its performance in low light.

Do I have to conclude that size of the chip (1/3" in the Sony HC90) is much more important than numbers of CCD for video quality, at least in this price range?
If this is true, I would not be far from being ready to decide.
bozzinil
PS.-
I looked at your previous posts on camcorders, which was very useful.
You speak there of the Digital 8 format, less expensive than mini-DV.
The Crutchfield Advisor says that usually this format does not offer top-of-the-line lenses. I do not have old tapes (8mm or HiCool to look at. So any utility for me to look at this format?
At equal price, could I get better video quality with Digital 8 than with mini-dv?

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sony
Apr 28, 2005 4:00PM PDT

I read the review of the GS250 as well. I actually bought a GS200 before I got my Sony and had the same problem. Out of all the cameras I've purchased, the size of the CCD seems to have the most impact on indoor shooting. The Panasonic 3ccds are fine outdoors, as are Canon, but they will not do very well indoors. As far as your digital 8 question goes, you will get much less quality with that format. Digital 8 is for people who already have a collection of 8mm and hi8mm tapes. The quality is better than analog, but not nearly as good as Mini-Dv.
Hope this helps

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Sony
Apr 29, 2005 1:17AM PDT

If you asked this question 4 years ago I would have said go with Sony Digitial 8. But today go with Mini DV. The quality of the lens and the CCD is more important than the tape format for home use.
In this price range make sure the camera will do analog to digitial pass through, then you can convert all of your old tapes to you PC and make DVDs from them. John

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to jcrobso/drhiberd/kiddpeat
Apr 29, 2005 10:50AM PDT

Thank you all of you. You have been very helpful in straightening out a bit the almost

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As one grandfather to another.
Apr 28, 2005 3:17AM PDT

If I were goning to buy one today I would look at
Sony DCR-HC42
DCR-HC90
Panasonic PV-GS150
PV-GS250
I know that the Pro Cannons are very good, but I have not had any experence with consumer Cannon cameras.

FYI at the low end of the Panasonic Pro line is the
AG-DVC7 This is a large camera that is a shoulder camera,
but is easer to shoot with for long periods of time.
It would be at the top of your budget. Discont price around $1100. At fullcompass.com John

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to jcrobso/drhiberd/kiddpeat
Apr 29, 2005 4:05AM PDT

Thank you all of you. You have been very helpful in straightening out a bit the almost

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A rejoinder to jcrobso/drhiberd
Apr 29, 2005 8:16AM PDT

After writing my previous message, I had a flash:

Since wider chips as 1/6" are now rare in consumer camcorders, the Sony HC 90 (did not find a review yet) is about my only choice (though I have noticed wider chips in the lower end line).
But then, I would eventually be forced to pay more for features I am not interested in like a wider LCD, or analog to digital pass (I do not have old tapes), etc. etc.

One possibility would be to go for a less expensive 1-CCD model (anyway most have 1/6") or a less expensive 3-CCD model.
This would be my first camcorder to pass on to the kids...
hoping that the market would soon offer me a more adapted model.
If the quality of consumer camcorders does noty progressively decrease...
Thanks again.

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Cameracorder
May 2, 2005 2:53AM PDT

Make sure you go to a store and get you hands on them berfore you buy. I was a my locial FRY's electronics on Saturday looking at about 30 different models and some of the newer models are very small and operating the controls can be difficult. John

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Sony HC90
May 2, 2005 4:30AM PDT

Check out the Sony HC90. It has one large CCD but takes awesome quality footage. The 3ccd camcorders do perform well in optimal situations (Bright Light) but fall down in many other situations. The 3ccd camcorders have reached the consumer but I don't think that any of the consumer 3 CCDs under $1000 can touch the Sony HC90. The HC90 is just an all around great camcorder.

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HC 90 not handy to my hand
May 2, 2005 8:45AM PDT

Yes, several folks highly recommended the HC 90.
Yet some folks suggested to me to put my hands on the camcorders before buying , which I did.
This leads me to eliminate the HC 90. I am a beginner mind you, but holding the camera as it should be, that is with the strap resting down between thumb and index, the record button is not easily available. The zoom button looks pretty cheap too.
But I will look again.
Thanks.

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Camcorder Quandary
May 7, 2005 1:19PM PDT

Well, I must say, reading though all the replies you have had some interesting suggestions. I suppose I must get on the band wagon and suggest the Panasonic PV-GS150. I have tried a couple other camcorders and settled on this one. I am very pleased with the outdoor as well as indoor recording quality. I have not had any problems with low light level recording. The other two camcorders that I tried were the Sony DCR-DVD403 and DCR-DVD92. I was not impressed! The video quality was quite poor, but the ability to simply finalize the DVD and play in any player was nice. One thing to note about finalizing, it takes about ten minutes. After I decided that I was only buying convenience in DVD technology I purchased my GS150 and have been very pleased.

I do not agree that still camera and camcorder technology should not be mixed. In fact it is a seamless transition eliminating the need to carry two devices around. The GS150 has a 2.3 mega pixel camera with built in flash. The camera has the ability to take stop action shots with a shutter speed of 0.5 seconds per second. Not great but decent. Two accessories that I plan on purchasing are the zoom microphone and a spot light for those just in case situations.

In summery, this is a good camcorder for the money and I will recommend this camera to anyone that just wants a consumer grade device. I purchased my camcorder at Best Buy for $700.00 plus tax.

Happy hunting.

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Sony
May 9, 2005 2:19PM PDT

I ordered my Sony HC90 from B & H, got it today. The only thing I can say is WOW!! Gorgeous picture!! This camera beats the picture quality of any camcorder I have ever used. (That includes a GL2) It is compact, easy to use, and shoots the best outdoor and low light footage ever. AMAZING!!