Speakeasy forum

General discussion

Military Documents Contradict Kerry Critic

This is beginning to sound like Speakeasy


A Vietnam veteran who claims Sen. John Kerry lied about being under fire during a Mekong Delta engagement that won Kerry a Bronze Star was under constant fire himself during the same skirmish, according to the man's own medal citation, a newspaper reported.

The newly obtained records of Larry Thurlow show that he, like Kerry, won a Bronze Star in the engagement and that Thurlow's citation said he also was under attack, The Washington Post reported Thursday.

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/story.jsp?flok=FF-APO-1131&idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20040819%2F0427812367.htm&sc=1131

Discussion is locked
You are posting a reply to: Military Documents Contradict Kerry Critic
The posting of advertisements, profanity, or personal attacks is prohibited. Please refer to our CNET Forums policies for details. All submitted content is subject to our Terms of Use.
Track this discussion and email me when there are updates

If you're asking for technical help, please be sure to include all your system info, including operating system, model number, and any other specifics related to the problem. Also please exercise your best judgment when posting in the forums--revealing personal information such as your e-mail address, telephone number, and address is not recommended.

You are reporting the following post: Military Documents Contradict Kerry Critic
This post has been flagged and will be reviewed by our staff. Thank you for helping us maintain CNET's great community.
Sorry, there was a problem flagging this post. Please try again now or at a later time.
If you believe this post is offensive or violates the CNET Forums' Usage policies, you can report it below (this will not automatically remove the post). Once reported, our moderators will be notified and the post will be reviewed.
Collapse -
Re: Military Documents Contradict Kerry Critic

In reply to: Military Documents Contradict Kerry Critic

Why would it sound like Speakeasy? Because we are all capable of digging up links and information to support whichever side we have decided to land on?

It stands to reason that there are people out there besides SE members who know how to research....

TONI

Collapse -
(NT) (NT) No, because it's he did, he didn't, he did, he didn't,

In reply to: Re: Military Documents Contradict Kerry Critic

Collapse -
I for one

In reply to: (NT) No, because it's he did, he didn't, he did, he didn't,

am happy to have people willing to research and dig in order to get all the information out on the table so I can better make an informed decision about issues. I think that's why it's called debating and not de-baiting. Whether it be journalistic media doing it or people here is SE.

TONI

Collapse -
Me too. :-) Hey, ..

In reply to: I for one

that makes twice now we have agreed. In the same century! Happy

Collapse -
Re: Military Documents Contradict Kerry Critic

In reply to: Military Documents Contradict Kerry Critic

Hi, Rosalie.

Thanks for saving me the time of posting. But just watch -- the Swift Boat vets won't let facts stand in the way of a good smear... If you look at their individual comments in interviews (not the ad), almost all mention first Kerry's "treason" by daring to criticize an immoral war and the wayt it was conducted. I guess only yes-men need serve as president, eh?

-- Dave K, Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

Collapse -
Re: Military Documents Contradict Kerry Critic

In reply to: Re: Military Documents Contradict Kerry Critic

"almost all mention first Kerry's "treason" by daring to criticize an immoral war and the wayt it was conducted. I guess only yes-men need serve as president, eh?" - DK

No, Dave, but the Prez gets to be the Commander in Chief. Military folks don't want the guy who called them baby killers and muderers to now be in charge of the fate of the armed forces. It's generally not a good idea to have the dissident who wants to bring the company down, be appointed the company president. One the bright side, at least if they nick themselves shaving, they may get a medal from it if he's in Wink

Collapse -
Re: Military Documents Contradict Kerry Critic

In reply to: Re: Military Documents Contradict Kerry Critic

Diane, I don't buy that the legal or moral thing to do is sit idly buy in the face of immoral action by one's own government. We ourselves established that principle at Nuremburg, and while what happened in VietNam didn't come close to that level, there were still problems that needed addressing. Kerry was no longer in uniform when he testified before the Senate, and thus not subject to military discipline. But you miss the point -- this Swift Boat vet (and probably many of the others) was lying when he tried to denigrate Kerry's heroism and character, and he feels justified because of his political disagreement with Kerry. That's simply wrong -- as in VietNam, the ends don't justify immoral means.

-- Dave K.
Speakeasy Moderator
click here to email semods4@yahoo.com

The opinions expressed above are my own,
and do not necessarily reflect those of CNET!

Collapse -
No Dave

In reply to: Re: Military Documents Contradict Kerry Critic

He wasn't lying and he has said that if that is actually what his citation read that he didn't deserve it either because there was no enemy fire.

I have already pointed the the Spot Reports on Kerry's own site that plainly indicate that despite Kerry's claim there was no small arms fire and none of the boats or personnel received small arms damage AND the schrapnel in his *** was, by kerry's own diary and words, self inflicted while blowing up rice although the Spot Report written by Kerry claims it resulted from an enemy mine. Can't have it both ways.

Collapse -
Hmm, Yes and no

In reply to: Re: Military Documents Contradict Kerry Critic

Kerry was no longer in uniform when he testified before the Senate, and thus not subject to military discipline.

I know what you mean, and yes, as I understand, he was discharged when started protesting. But most of the pictures and videos I've seen on the web and tv news show him wearing his old uniform testifying at congressional hearings. Apparently trading on his military experience to lend weight to his testimony.

And I'll not claim all he said was a lie, but then and now there has been controversy surrounding his statements then and now. Enough so that I'd suspect at least part was not accurate, at the least an extreme exaggeration. At the worst, outright fabrications to support his purpose/sgenda. Most likely, pick and choose, hearsay and exaggerations, between what he knew and what others had said without necessarily investigating their claims.

And what he did and said then wouldn't be as a important if he wasn't campaigning on it.

Many of the contradictions now may be just memory slips, sure. But if he's going to make speeches and use such to campaigning on, I'd expect him to be checking his facts a bit before making public pontifications on them.

Shrug, politics as usual, hyperbole and exaggeration, slant as it suits the day, a habit of everyone in the business.

But the debate about his service is as much started by his instance he is better just because of his Vietnam experience if nothing else.

RogerNC

click here to email semods4@yahoo.com
Collapse -
Re: Military Documents Contradict Kerry Critic

In reply to: Re: Military Documents Contradict Kerry Critic

Hi Dave:

That's what I noticed when one of them was interviewed on CNN. When asked for details, he kept making references to Kerry's testimony in 1971 -- long after he'd come home from Vietnam. He was also forced to admit that he had no firsthand knowledge to support the allegations made in that ad.

Then there was the guy who retracted his comments, then un-retracted them. Maybe he'll retract them again, who knows.

Collapse -
Re: Military Documents Contradict Kerry Critic

In reply to: Re: Military Documents Contradict Kerry Critic

"Then there was the guy who retracted his comments, then un-retracted them. Maybe he'll retract them again, who knows."

Gee! I guess he learned a lot from ol Flip Flop:))
Glenda

Collapse -
Re: Military Documents Contradict Kerry Critic

In reply to: Re: Military Documents Contradict Kerry Critic

Or maybe he isn't such a reliable "witness." If you were on a jury and a witness testified, recanted, then un-recanted, would you consider that witness reliable?

Collapse -
Re: Military Documents Contradict Kerry Critic

In reply to: Re: Military Documents Contradict Kerry Critic

Let's turn that around, we have a man running for President, He has memories SEARED into his head SEARED,
but in his own journal he himself writes that he was in another area than the one SEARED into his memory!
You wouldn't want a flip flop as a witness BUT you WILL take one for a PRESIDENT???????? Sheesh!
Glenda

Collapse -
Instead of turning that around....

In reply to: Re: Military Documents Contradict Kerry Critic

...how about just answering my question?

Collapse -
Nope! I wouldn't!

In reply to: Instead of turning that around....

Now answer mine? Do you want a proven liar for President?
Glenda

Collapse -
Nope! I wouldn't want a proven liar for President....

In reply to: Nope! I wouldn't!

...which is why I won't vote for George W. "I've never been arrested" Bush.

But I'll take the bait; since you've called Kerry a proven liar, I'm sure you won't mind providing the proof.

Collapse -
Re: Nope! I wouldn't want a proven liar for President....

In reply to: Nope! I wouldn't want a proven liar for President....

NOT going to play that game, Josh! The proof is all over the place and you just hide from itSad I believe enough links have already been posted in SE! How About the lie I was in Cambodia on Christmas! Sheesh KERRY Himself made that statement! And in his journal he wrote where he REALLY was on that Christmas! It is useless arguing with you on this issueSad Just one time address all the LIES that Kerry has made and WHY you still choose to believe this man!
Glenda

Collapse -
Re: Nope! I wouldn't want a proven liar for President....

In reply to: Re: Nope! I wouldn't want a proven liar for President....

So the short of it is that you are unwilling to try to back up your claim. Not surprised, since you still haven't been willing to try to back up your claim that I've "implied" that anyone who supports Bush is a moron.

Collapse -
Sheesh!

In reply to: Re: Nope! I wouldn't want a proven liar for President....

What I am saying Josh is that it is not worth spending my time to link to those discussions! You argue with everyone that Kerry is so great! You ignore what is posted and refuse to accept the fact that Kerry is a proven liar! And just for the heck of it, I admit maybe I was wrong to say you IMPLY anything! But I FEEL like anyone that is on the opposite side you are on is treated like an idiot! Man I HATE politics!!!
Makes sane people go nuts!
Glenda

Collapse -
Re: Sheesh!

In reply to: Sheesh!

Collapse -
That certainly does not...

In reply to: Re: Sheesh!

represent the FACTS as stated in the records although it does parrot the party line Josh.

Regarding Bronze Star the citations, they are based on the official after action report (spot report) and Kerry wrote that up. None of the rest noted incoming small arms fire although mortar fire was noted. None of the casualties were from small arms fire (although the pdf file of the report on the kerry site seems to attempt to make it seem so until one looks at the date and realizes the first page has nothing to do with the action.

While Rassman claims that an explosion threw him off the boat Kerry himself, (page s186 of the January 28, 1998 Congressional Record) states that Rassman went overboard because of an abrupt turn, NOT an explosion--why isn't that mentioned--too inconvenient?

Their comment about purple heart for friendly fire is not in accordance with naval Requirements cited in SECNAVINST 1650.1G which limits such to:

(6) As the result of friendly weapon fire while
actively engaging the enemy.
(and popping a grenade in a rice bin doesn't qualify as engaging the enemy.)

The bruised arm alone could have qualified IF the direct result of the action but the casualty report doesn't indicate damage to the boat which could have caused it. The schrapnel in his *** was attributed to the "enemy mine" although his own statement indicated it was received from attacking the vicious rice bin.

First purple heart comment - if you want to believe that he was not treated by Dr. Letson (although he was the only Medical Officer assigned to the USCGC Spencer where they received treatment) then you must agree that he isn't entitled to it at all because the same reg states the following (and you need to be aware that a Corpsman is NOT a medical Officer):

d. Limitations. Except in the case of a prisoner of war, the wound for which the award is made must have required treatment by a medical officer at the time of injury. Only one award is authorized for more than one wound or injury received at the same instant from the same missile, force, explosion, or agent. Prisoners of war, if entitled, will be limited to a single Purple Heart covering the entire period of their
captivity.


That should make it pretty clear that if Letson didn't treat it the award was fraudulent and if willing to admit that Letson did treat it it was fradulent because it did not REQUIRE treatment by a Medical Officer. Gosh, fraudulent either way you prefer to look at it.

And last but not least, Elliot never retracted anything except specific wording which, when the new but kinder and gentler words are used means the same thing as was stated first, that being that Kerry didn't deserve the award.

Like Dave's link to Kerry's bio, your link certainly omits many of the FACTS that paint a better and more accurate picture of Kerry.

Wonder why they didn't go on about Cambodia and "seared" memories that Kerry has to keep un searing and flip flopping on.

Collapse -
Boy, you learn something new every day!

In reply to: That certainly does not...

Who knew factcheck.org was just another left-wing mouthpiece site.

Plain

Collapse -
Hopefully so...

In reply to: Boy, you learn something new every day!

Factcheck is a bit more like SNOPES in that their BIAS is toward the left and far too much of their "proofs" is by omission of pertinent information.

Do note the sources cited for their "proof" as well as the bias of the sources. Note also that they are very careful to NOT MENTION Steve Gardner, a Kerry crewman, who has this to say:

"My name is Steve Gardner. I served in 1966 and 1967 on my first tour of duty in Vietnam on Swift boats, and I did my second tour in '68 and '69, involved with John Kerry in the last 2 1/2 months of my tour. The John Kerry that I know is not the John Kerry that everybody else is portraying. I served alongside him and behind him, five feet away from him in a gun tub, and watched as he made indecisive moves with our boat, put our boats in jeopardy, put our crews in jeopardy... if a man like that can't handle that 6-man crew boat, how can you expect him to be our Commander-in-Chief?"

-- Steven Gardner


although they imply that all his former crew support him. They also don't mention that those who do support him in general (Bill Zaldonis and Steven Hatch) disagree with Kerry about Cambodia and a few other incidents.

He has worked at the Committee for a Democratic Majority and at Sen. Edward M. Kennedy's campaign committee. At GWU he founded and edited Sticks & Stones, an independent, student-run progressive newsmagazine.


Collapse -
Re: Hopefully so...

In reply to: Hopefully so...

I don't think they're biased towards the left. They can't help it if we're right more often than you guys are.

Wink

Collapse -
Although many proofs have been presented ...

In reply to: Nope! I wouldn't want a proven liar for President....

here are a few more:

http://reviews.cnet.com/5208-6130-0.html?forumID=50&threadID=33583&messageID=388137

Read the info linked to (especially what is on Kerry's site and in the Congressional record) consider his being caught in the Cambodia lie.

Consider that they claim a "different Doctor" signed his record for the first scratch despite proof that the signature was that of one of the doctor's corpsmen and a corpsman is not a doctor and a doctor MUST treat any injury warranting a purple heart by regulation.

Consider that his own crewmen deny his Cambodia claim. Consider that Rassman claims Kerry pulled him out of the water with his bleeding arm but the casualty report indicates the wound was in his ***.

Yes Josh Kerry is a liar and you have pretty plainly stated you wouldn't want a proven liar for president.

Collapse -
Depends on what document you read.

In reply to: Although many proofs have been presented ...

"Consider that Rassman claims Kerry pulled him out of the water with his bleeding arm but the casualty report indicates the wound was in his ***."

This document says his arm was bleeding

Document entitled Bronze Star

http://news.findlaw.com/legalnews/lit/election2004/docs.html#gbush

It's a government document so it must be correct right? But then there is another government document that says ...... and on and on ......

I say the poor guy was bleeding so he must have been wounded. Let's give him the Bronze Star, OK! Happy

Collapse -
Reminded me

In reply to: Depends on what document you read.

>>>>I say the poor guy was bleeding so he must have been wounded. Let's give him the Bronze Star, OK!>>>>

My first hubby was in Basic Training at Great Lakes in 1967 when he feel from the ropes and split his hand wide open. Instead of giving him a Bronze Star or Purple Heart for 'bleeding', he was required to stay in Basic Training for an additional six weeks while he healed from the stitches required and could climb the ropes again and pass.... and couldn't graduate with the rest of his mates.

TONI

Collapse -
Was he in combat at the time?

In reply to: Reminded me

Then he deserves the Bronze Star also.

Collapse -
(NT) (NT) No, but neither was Kerry ;)

In reply to: Was he in combat at the time?

Collapse -
Re: Reminded me

In reply to: Reminded me

Are basic training injuries eligible for decoration?

Dan

Popular Forums

icon
Computer Newbies 10,686 discussions
icon
Computer Help 54,365 discussions
icon
Laptops 21,181 discussions
icon
Networking & Wireless 16,313 discussions
icon
Phones 17,137 discussions
icon
Security 31,287 discussions
icon
TVs & Home Theaters 22,101 discussions
icon
Windows 7 8,164 discussions
icon
Windows 10 2,657 discussions

GRAMMYS 2019

Here's Everything to Know About the 2019 Grammys

Find out how to watch the Grammy Awards if you don't have cable and more.